In this episode, Marketer’s Brief host Brandon Doerrer interviewed Magno Herran, VP of global brand marketing and partnerships, Netflix. Listen below, or read the transcript, which has been lightly edited for clarity.

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How Netflix brand partnerships come together

Brandon:​ Since the start of the year, you’ve helped lead a number of campaigns and brand partnerships between Netflix and various brand partners. There was a McDonald’s “KPop Demon Hunters” collaboration recently, “Bridgerton” and Dove, “Running Point” and State Farm, and a variety of other brand partners. Maybe we can start by talking a little bit about how these partnerships come together. Who approaches whom? How do these deals actually formulate, since I know a big part of your job is putting these together?

Magno:​ There are so many ways into these things. There’s certainly the stance where we are very proactive about it—where we take a look at a script, identify moments and then think about potential brands that have either done interesting work in culture or are willing to take big risks. Then we approach them with an idea, and it goes from there.

There are instances where brands come to us, and they’re like, “Hey, listen, we fell in love with that series or that show, and we want to be a part of it.” Then we start thinking about whether there is an authentic match between them and try to find a space in between.

And then “Running Point,” because you mentioned upfronts, is a really interesting one. It was a conversation with the State Farm team at our upfronts, with Bela [Bajaria], our chief content officer. That sparked a conversation, and then we landed where we landed. So there are multiple ways in, but at all times it requires a lot of understanding of the brands and what they’re trying to accomplish, understanding the series and the fandoms associated with them, and trying to find these unique intersections that you couldn’t do with any other brand.

Brandon:​ Can we actually walk through, using the State Farm–“Running Point” partnership as an example, how it formed from the early conversations all the way to the campaign that rolled out and the way the brand appeared in the show? Since you mentioned that it happened at upfronts, can you walk us through how that partnership came to life?

Magno:​ State Farm has done such a good job of being really part of the sports world. They show up in and around all sorts of events, and because the show is so rooted in basketball, that’s what the original conversation was about. It was like, “Hey, listen, our team advertises in and around, sponsors all sorts of sporting events. You guys have this one show, you’re also going into live.” So it’s a very general conversation at that stage. There’s a ton of credibility from a brand like State Farm to participate in anything NBA-related.

Then the interesting stuff happens. We have an internal creative team that’s dedicated to finding those unique intersections that might make sense—trying to connect culture and conversations happening in the world with what’s happening in the shows themselves. That’s where the idea came from that Jake himself is such an iconic character. You see him walking around any of these sporting events, and he’s a celebrity in his own right.

And then the idea and the premise of the show itself: it’s this band of misfits that, at any given moment, are a liability to the team or to themselves, and [the protagonist] is trying to wrangle it all together. That’s where the spark came about, of, “We could bring in Jake and pair him with Travis, who is the biggest liability to the team, and build a whole campaign around that.” The appearance in the show itself is just a cameo, just a nod to the fact that he’s there. The storytelling really happens in the campaign that was created afterward.

Brandon:​ Do you always handle these partnerships in-house, or do you work with agencies or other partners on forming them?

Magno:​ We collaborate with partners. There was a partner on that one. We have an in-house creative team, and sometimes we do take the work on. Other times, we partner really closely with the creative agency and the brands themselves, and we share what we each bring to the table.

Our team is very much rooted in a creative bar that we think is going to resonate with the fans themselves of the shows—a deep understanding of the themes, characters and storylines, and how fans react to them. Then we work with the brands and sometimes their agencies; they have the best understanding of what the brand stands for and what the brand is trying to accomplish. That’s where that marriage comes together.

Brandon:​ Can we talk about how a partnership like State Farm and “Running Point,” where you’re integrating the brand into the show, differs from something like the “KPop Demon Hunters” and McDonald’s collaboration, where you co-create an ad in the style of the show?

Are there significant differences between trying to integrate a brand into one of your properties versus co-creating a spot and campaign together?

Magno:​ They’re similar in some ways. They’re similar in the fact that we always want to be idea-led. We always want to make sure there’s something to tell the fans of the show, or the people we’re trying to reach, that makes sense.

The integration piece just requires that extra layer of authenticity. If we’re going to put it into a show, it has to make sense for the storyline, and it can’t be disruptive. So we work really upstream, at the scripting stage, with the creators of the shows themselves to understand where something might make sense or not.

In the case of Jake, it just made sense because, like I mentioned, he’s so endemic. He does show up to basketball games, and his cameo was very much in that vein: he was showing up at a basketball game, a nod from [the protagonist] and the crew. Then the storytelling happens in the campaigns themselves, which are always co-created.

For us, the integration is just one element of a potentially bigger campaign rooted in a single idea that we think is going to resonate with fans of the show itself.

What Netflix looks for in brand partners

Brandon:​ What is the more common form of partnership for Netflix right now, and what is Netflix most interested in from a brand perspective? Is Netflix’s need changing in terms of what it looks for in a brand partner, or what are you looking for from your brand partners these days?

Magno:​ Our premise has stayed pretty true for the past several years. We’ve just been able to do it now at scale because the slate is so interesting, and we’ve gotten more traction in the market.

You hear this all the time: people seek authenticity; people seek to do things in a way that makes sense for the fans. You don’t want a logo slap—all these things you hear out in the marketplace. What we’ve been able to do is prove it out in the executions themselves. That’s why we pay such close attention, and we have this internal creative team and the folks talking to brands understand that you can’t just say you want to be authentic to a specific piece of a show or a fandom and do a partnership. You have to actually deliver on that promise.

The ambition hasn’t changed and the need hasn’t changed. We’re still seeking partners that want to take a big swing, that want to tap into the cultural conversation around these shows, that want to do it authentically and, most importantly, that want to co-create with us.

From there, we have all these different levers now. We could advertise on the ads tier and put an ad right in front of the show. What would that look like in context? How does that then translate to something that happens on social? If we do an integration because it makes sense, how does that connect to the broader story and campaign we’re trying to tell?

The root of the campaigns and the essence of what we’re trying to accomplish is the same; now we have more levers at our disposal to build these campaigns and make them travel in different ways.

Brandon:​ Can you go into a little more detail about the bar you set for brand partnerships? You mentioned you want brands that are going to tap into the culture around the show. What do you actually look for in terms of brands being willing to engage with the show beyond just throwing a product into the background?

Magno:​ Initially, it’s sometimes a painful part of the discussion. We spend a lot of time on the strategy portion of it because we’re always seeking creativity over volume. We want to make sure we have the right partners that are going to provide the right level of impact for the show itself, but also for the business needs of the brands. They come in with KPIs. Sometimes it’s sales metrics; sometimes it’s brand lift studies or affinity and things like that. We want to understand that very deeply before we even get into any creative conversation or agreement that we will participate together.

Once we understand that, we go into this phase of co-creating a nugget of an idea. Do we have territories that make sense? Does it feel authentic or not? In that process, you start understanding which brands really want to take this on and which brands just really want to give their logo and have us run it all over the show.

That is an interesting process in itself that takes some time. These partnerships take quite a bit of time; 18 months out is more typical—12 months out would be a scary one to take on. You think about something like McDonald’s and the amount of details in every single element that went into that. That takes time. That takes collaboration. That takes collaboration with Maggie [Kang] and Chris [Appelhans], the creators, to make sure they have their touch on what the campaign is.

It really is about spending that amount of time up front, understanding what brands are trying to accomplish and making sure we have the right fit to work together. We’re not afraid to say no, and that’s sometimes an unpopular opinion. It’s really not about being elitist; it’s that we want these campaigns to work, and we have a really good pulse of what the fans of the shows or films want to engage with. We just want brands that want to take part in that.

Brandon:​ What are the reasons you most commonly have to turn down a partnership, so listeners can maybe avoid some of that?

Magno:​ The biggest one is when it’s obviously not a natural fit for the show. It might be that that opportunity isn’t right, and we always keep the door open to come back to the table.

An electric vehicle in “Bridgerton” will never make sense. That’s a fairly obvious example, but you’d be surprised—sometimes these things come up. So it’s about saying, “You know what, that might not make sense for this opportunity, but let’s figure out another moment that does.”

The other one is: does the model make sense? Do you want to spend as much time collaborating on these things and making sure we have the right storytelling? Sometimes the answer naturally becomes, “You know what, not just yet, but let’s come back to the table when it really makes sense against some business objective.”

The door’s always open. We’re always having conversations. We’re really excited about upfronts, and the conversations will come, and we’ll highlight some of these examples.

The interesting part is that as we’ve built this body of work and are able to scale it now, not just in the U.S. but all over—Brazil, Mexico, Korea, Japan, all over Europe—we’re seeing the right metrics. We’re seeing that brand affinity is really paying off. We’re also seeing that lower-funnel metrics like purchase intent are moving the needle as well.

We’re starting to build a really interesting body of work that shows this process, this way of engaging, this high bar for creative execution in the spirit of serving the fans of the show they’re trying to reach, really does work when you spend the time and effort to do it right.

Marketing to young fans and competing for attention

Brandon:​ I wanted to talk a little bit about entertainment marketing and marketing these shows, looking at broader trends. What are some of the bigger challenges to marketing to fans of these shows, and how are you approaching these partnerships in ways that address these challenges?

When I think about young Gen Z fans watching these shows, you also have to compete with social media and the variety of other platforms they’re paying attention to. There was an IAB study that showed social ad spend, for the first time, is starting to outpace CTV ad spend. When you think about these challenges, are there particular ways that you approach these partnerships to address them? And what would you say are the biggest challenges right now?

Magno:​ You have to really understand the audience you’re trying to serve. For us, and why we think about all the levers we have at our disposal, it’s: what does an ad on Netflix look like? What should that be? In our mind, it should be as entertaining as the content itself. That’s a starting point for us. If you’re watching something on Netflix, you want to be entertained, and we really think about what that could look like.

Then we think about these bigger 360 campaigns we work with partners on and how they live on social. It’s not the same ad that you would run, just ported over, but there’s got to be an element that lives there. The McDonald’s campaign is a good example, where we really thought about every touchpoint. What does the custom animation look like? What does the music video we revealed at the end look like? How does that get distributed through McDonald’s channels as well to reach the right audience? How do the collectible cards take form, and how do we follow that collectible-card way of operating and make sure it’s authentic?

The biggest challenge is that all the consumers and fans of the shows we’re trying to reach are so sophisticated in the way they engage. It’s up to us as marketers to meet them where they are, in the channels they’re in.

We take great pride and effort in trying to make sure that, at every touchpoint, we have something that adds value to their experience and isn’t distracting from what they’re actually trying to do, which is engage with the shows or characters themselves.

Brandon:​ I would imagine this varies from campaign to campaign, but what does Netflix’s media mix look like these days?

Magno:​ It is, like you said, super partner-dependent. It starts with that early phase where we’re understanding what the goals are and what we’re trying to accomplish.

There’s no doubt that when you put an ad on Netflix right in front of the show itself, if you’re able to tell the right story, then it’s going to resonate quite well. It’s going to set you in the right frame of mind to then watch the show. We use that a lot as an anchor point for a lot of these campaigns.

Then we think more broadly: where can these things live? Where are those audiences? We custom-build the media mix very specific to each campaign.

An interesting one—also on Netflix, but in a different context because it was live—is we had an incredible collection of partnerships for “Stranger Things,” some that really went in-world and went back to the 1980s to tell unique stories. We had Gatorade, Tide, Target and a couple of others. We were able to put them together in a pod inside one of our NFL games. That was a really fun break for people to experience that, and then we figured out ways to tell that story on social as well.

We’re very creative with our partners and spend a lot of time co-creating even the media plans that go into these things, because we think that’s the best way to get ahold of these folks.

There’s no such thing as, “They’re going to see this asset first and then it’s going to run here, and then the next phase is this.” People experience things in so many different ways, and we just want to make sure we have something for all these elements.

Brandon:​ The funnel is not shaped in the same way that it used to be.

Magno:​ Yeah, it’s not as linear as we’d like it to look on a slide with a media plan, so you just have to account for that.

Brandon:​ I’m curious what you think other marketers who might be listening could learn from Netflix’s approach, totally agnostic to category. Do you see things Netflix is doing that other marketers could learn from and potentially adopt?

Magno:​ Marian [Lee], our CMO, reminds us every day that we’re here to serve our fans, and I think that is a North Star for everything we do—from our own marketing campaigns, and that extends to the partnerships we’ve talked about. Having that mentality really makes you understand who you’re trying to speak to, to the point where we speak their language.

You see our marquee on Sunset—that is in the tone of voice of the fan of the show we’re referencing. It could be directly lifted from a social media conversation that happened. For me, the biggest learning is that you have to really be true to that. If you are, the chances of you connecting with them on any campaign are much higher than when you’re just trying to serve an ad that doesn’t quite click with what they’re already talking about.

What to watch at this year’s upfronts

Brandon:​ Given your proximity to the upfronts, what do you see as one potential trend or one way this year might differ from last year or other years you’ve participated in—and maybe one big challenge unique to this year as well?

Magno:​ Cutting through is a tough one. Everyone’s so busy that week, and there are so many meetings, so you want to make sure that your presence and your engagements directly with brands or agencies are compelling.

You’ll find with our show that we’re trying to take an approach where the show is super entertaining. The show itself gets you closer to the content and the opportunities we have for advertisers, and makes sure there’s a clear understanding of how our ads product is getting you closer to the shows themselves. I’m excited that we’re going to be able to tell that story.

It really is about that: how we, as Netflix—so good at content and so good at technology—bring these two things together in one compelling story. I think you’ll see some of that from us, and I’m excited about the show itself. I think everyone’s going to be pleasantly surprised.

Brandon:​ This will be my first year attending, so I’m excited to check it out. One question we like to ask all of our guests on “Marketer’s Brief” is: Do you have a question for another CMO or marketer?

Magno:​ There’s a lot of conversation around what the right mix is between brand building and performance marketing. I’m always very curious to understand that, and the answer changes from CMO to CMO and from service or product to product.

I love that line of thinking because I’m in the camp that you can’t do one without the other, and that your campaigns don’t necessarily have to serve one thing. If you’re smart about it—if you build them the right way—you can actually execute across a full funnel. That’s something I’ve been curious about, and I hear it more and more in the conversations we’re having: “We’d love to do that, but right now we really have to focus on more performance-type-driven things.” Maybe there’s a way to do both.

In this episode, Marketer’s Brief host Erika Wheless interviewed David Oksman, VP of marketing and direct-to-consumer, Samsonite. Listen below, or read the transcript, which has been lightly edited for clarity.

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Erika: All right, so let’s get into it. So Samsonite recently released a new campaign with Olivia Culpo that is social-first. Walk me through both of those decisions. Why did you guys go with Culpo and then why lean into social?

David: Absolutely. So our new campaign is really the next chapter of the “It’s Not Just a Bag, It’s a Samsonite” campaign. And really, that campaign is about leaning into our brand as more than just luggage. It’s about a whole lifestyle as it relates to travel. And Olivia Culpo is just the perfect reflection of the consumer we’re trying to reach. She is part of culture. She loves to travel, and honestly, part of it is that she’s a foodie, which is so important to so many of the travelers that we’re targeting with this campaign. So she’s just the perfect fit for us.

On top of that, in terms of being social first, I almost call social “discovery marketing” now. This is where consumers aren’t just going to see what their friends are doing. They’re discovering brands, they’re figuring out what they might want in terms of product discovery, and really, it’s transforming the way we’re thinking about our funnel overall.

Erika: So Samsonite has been around for over a century. I know you guys have high awareness. I think you have high trust. But I know that there maybe is a little bit of like, “How do we convince younger consumers this is not your parents’ travel brand?” I know the company had a campaign of like, not your parents’ suitcase. So talk to me about the new campaign—you mentioned you want to reach foodies and travelers. Why do this new campaign now, and talk to me a little bit more about who you want it to resonate with?

David: Sure. So yeah, we’re a brand with great heritage, and I really view our heritage not as the ceiling for the brand, but the foundation for the brand. For being around for over 100 years, that doesn’t happen by playing safe, right? It happens through the innovation that Samsonite has really stood for over the past 100 years. So really, in terms of reaching a younger consumer, it’s just reflecting psychographically what they care about. So lifestyle bags—anytime you leave your front door, you’re moving. And the Samsonite brand has an incredible collection of products, whether it is for air travel, but also to commute with, to go to the gym, when you’re out with your family. And this campaign is sort of a reflection of how you tell that story to multiple generations, truly through the idea of a psychographic versus a demographic.

Erika: OK, so I’m hearing that we’re moving maybe a little away from product-forward messaging and more into lifestyle-driven messaging, which is an interesting shift because it’s a suitcase, right? Most people are like, “How big is it? How light is it? Does it fit in the overhead?” So what happened internally? What was the argument internally of, like, “We should move to more of a lifestyle element of the brand? What are maybe things you’re leaving behind in doing that?”

David: The idea truly is connecting culture and commerce, right? We are the No. 1 most trusted brand in the category. We have the largest market share, and a lot of that is about the decision-making on the product piece, which starts with being known as durable and lightweight. So we’re winning there and we’re going to continue to focus and invest. But as you come upstream and you think about how travel has changed in people’s lives, travel has become a lifestyle in and of itself. People self-reflect on what it means to their personal wellbeing, whether it’s being their best self through discovery and meeting other people. So ultimately, as we bring new consumers into the brand, we need to meet them where they are in culture and where they are with travel, which is really that give and take of bringing them in through self-reflecting on their lifestyle, and then showing them the innovation, the durability, the quality that we’ve always won with.

Erika: Let’s dig into that a little deeper. How do you keep the product credibility piece but also build on that emotional side? Is it emotional first, and then the product durability piece? How do you message around that?

David: For sure. Just like consumers, the funnel has been upended. It’s not really top-down. So some consumers are going to start their experience on a great platform like TikTok, or they might start their experience on Amazon, and in each of those, we’re going to give them a very distinct point of view. Our digital shelf content is going to hammer home the innovation in the product. And the innovation in the product is still helping the lifestyle be its best self. So from the bottom-up side, we’re hitting that every day. But from a top-down, we’re aligning with authentic influencers. We’re looking out for cultural signals. We really want to move at the speed of culture and find people who are in that moment where they need a brand like ours. And the thing that really hammers it home for me is this is an iconic brand. It’s been around for a long time, which is why we don’t chase trends. Because at the end of the day, if you do buy luggage from us, you’re probably going to have it for quite a few years because it’s so durable and long-lasting. So our colorways are always going to be beautiful but iconic. They’re going to last a long time because we want your relationship with the brand to last that long as well.

Erika: Are there other celebrities or other talent? I know Culpo is the face of this one, but can you give us a sneak peek? Are there some other celebs or influencers we should look out for with the new campaign?

David: We’ve got a lot of fun things coming. I’m not going to give away all the fun, but I will say over the past years we’ve partnered across different moments in travel lifestyle with Payton Pritchard, a sports star who is constantly in different cities as part of the Boston Celtics.

We did a campaign with John Turturro, and how he’s moving about New York City and his passion for that city. We partnered with the U.S. Gymnastics team on their journey to the Olympics. So culture, collabs, partnerships really are at the center of what we’re doing. Chloe Fineman, “Saturday Night Live” talent, another friend of the brand who we’ve really put our emphasis and focus there because we recognize that they self-reflect something aspirational for our consumer who we call the iconic explorer.

Erika: For the Culpo campaign, you mentioned that foodies are one of those things. What were the metrics or the internal data that surfaced that? How did you guys see, “OK, we have travelers and we have food lovers, so we should hit on that?”

David: Absolutely. So it starts with our consumer, like everything does, right? And for us, we call this Samsonite’s aspirational consumer the iconic explorer. They’re travelers, not tourists. When they go to a city, they want to immerse themselves in the local communities. They want to eat where the locals eat. They want to experience things in a really unique way.

So that qual data—a lot of qual and quant that we did in terms of consumer insights—and then layering in tons of insights that we capture from. Booking.com every year does this amazing trend report that we’re constantly looking at. And in that example, we are seeing that travel is becoming mental wellness. It’s becoming completely lifestyle-based, and even trips for things like food destinations are something that this aspirational consumer is just begging for.

Erika: So when you guys move from, “Here is a durable suitcase,” to, ”Here is your feelings about travel,” the metrics might get a little softer. So how do you all measure what is working in your campaigns? What are the behaviors or KPIs that you’re measuring?

David: Absolutely. From a culture-to-commerce perspective, if we start with culture, we’re obviously looking at engagement as it’s reflected in our social channels. We also have a closeness metric as part of our brand health tracking that’s telling us if we are emotionally connecting with the consumer. And then we’re taking that and reviewing it through the lens of—by being closer to the consumer, what are we seeing from an awareness-to-consideration perspective? And then as you come downstream, are we turning that engagement, are we turning that emotional factor into conversion and sales, which are critical across both lifestyle bags as well as the pure luggage side of the business?

Erika: Is there a tension between that heritage, that history of the brand, and wanting to feel more modern? Does it hinder? Does it help? How do you manage that?

David: I think, honestly, they are one plus one equals three, because the foundation for the brand has always been innovation. Back when the brand started, it was truly the best product in the market and we continue to bring that level of innovation and reflect on it. I think if anything, by being consumer-centric, which we’ve been for 115 years as the leader, it really has been about following cues of how the consumer wanted to move. If anything, the biggest difference is people move completely different than they did 115 years ago, and our product has evolved and modernized with them. And now you’ve got this amazing component where it’s also lifestyle. It emotionally connects in this unique way, which just enables us to tell our story in a compelling and authentic way to our consumer.

Erika: I love talking about what’s changed. When you look back, even just in the last couple of years, are there certain things that stand out about how travelers have changed? And how has Samsonite been like, “OK, we need to take that into account, or we should update the product to include XYZ.” How do you guys incorporate those consumer behavior changes?

David: I think the biggest shift—we are extremely lucky because we’re in a category where many categories have become more commoditized and ours has become far more emotionally connected with the consumer. So we’re lucky to be in a space where people are doubling down. Gen Z is committed to travel, so their relationship with the product has changed.

I actually accepted this role three days before COVID hit. And the cycle of change that happened so quickly, where, first off, people stopped flying. So you have this brand that’s focused on travel, but then slowly people moved a little bit more domestically. It was road trips. And then road trips opened up to a little bit of close-knit air traffic. Then you have revenge travel, where everyone was going to Italy, everyone was going overseas. And now we’re in this interesting moment where the world is shifting and it seems like shorter domestic flights are more in vogue right now. And on top of that, people just want the weekender—for her, for the occasions that she’s moving in, to match the carry-on and to have it all feel very integrated like everything else she’s carrying. And we’re just continuing to double down on listening, seeing that shift, and making sure that we’re providing her with the best products for those experiences.

Erika: Is part of it, too, that the feeling that travel is stressful—does that fuel how you think about the product as well? Like, at least this is going to work and look good doing it?

David: 100%. We want to make it frictionless. We want to give her the confidence, we want to give him the confidence to travel seamlessly. There’s nothing worse than if TSA is backed up or there’s challenges in your day-to-day travel—we want everything that you can hold on to, everything that you need to bring with you to be as seamless as possible. There’s nothing worse than if someone breaks a wheel — that becomes a bigger headache. So we really focus on the most innovative, best quality products to make sure that you have the confidence to move so that you can just experience and have the memories that come with travel.

Erika: Let me come back to the new Culpo campaign. You mentioned that this is another leg in a larger overarching campaign, and again, moving more towards lifestyle messaging. Was there an inflection moment? What made you guys say we can now shift to this more emotional, culture-forward lifestyle element? What was the tipping point or the metric that gave you permission to move more away from the product side and more to that feeling side?

David: I think over the past five years, we’ve gone through a whole journey of doing segmentation, understanding who this more aspirational consumer is, doing the qual-quant, redefining and elevating our brand look and feel, building an in-house agency for content creation, transforming our digital shelf. So I would say this is just a modernization that’s been underway for many years. I think the reflection is that we’ve got the most amazing products—we just need to tell that story through culture in a way that is going to bring her along with us. Because, to your point, we had a campaign that was about “Travel Like Your Parents,” because so much of what we heard was, “I know your product is great, my parents always carry it.” But once we show this consumer, this Gen Z or this more lifestyle consumer, what we have to offer, it’s game over. They’re in because they know it’s great quality and now they see how it matches and reflects who they are. So I’d say it has been a constant progression and growth for us to get to this moment with this campaign, and we’re super excited to see how Olivia connects with our consumer and how we bring it to life.

Erika: I want to bring in the competitors here. I’m thinking of brands like Away and Béis, which have these lifestyle identities, but they don’t necessarily have the legacy or the heritage that Samsonite has. Does that make your job harder or easier? Do you feel like Samsonite is trying to beat them at their own game, or is it a different game entirely?

David: That’s a great question. I have a lot of respect for those DTC brands and I actually give them a lot of credit, because I think on the journey of making the category more lifestyle and less commoditized, they’ve done a great job for their sliver and their very focused consumer. For us, I really think it comes back to being authentic. We’re not trying to do what they’re doing. I think, as an iconic brand with all this history and heritage that is the most trusted, it really comes down to just authentically telling our story and leveraging this incredible scale that we have by being the market leader. So again, I think they’re doing a great job within their universe, but we’re more focused on winning within the playbook and the focus we have for our brand and our consumer.

Erika: What would your advice be to other heritage brand marketers who are maybe looking to breathe new life into their brand? What would you say to them? Where should they start?

David: Don’t be a heritage brand, be a brand with heritage. I would tell them to really fundamentally understand what makes their brand great through that heritage. And then ensure that you’re not too afraid to push the boundaries of how that could look in today’s universe. Take what’s great about where you’ve been, but at the end of the day, the funnel has changed, the consumer mindset has changed. Break the rules a little bit and push boundaries as it relates to being the best version of the brand that you can be.

Erika: All right, and David, we like to end with—we talk to a lot of marketing leaders on this podcast. So if you could ask a CMO one question, who are you asking and what are you asking them?

David: For me, I would probably call up Chris Davis at New Balance, CMO of New Balance—a brand that’s been through an incredible modernization, moving at the speed of culture. We have a lot of respect for what they’re doing over there. As an old shoe dog myself, former Reebok executive—and I don’t know if you’ve heard the story, but when they flipped their funnel and they decided they were going to invest more in the upper funnel than the lower funnel, I think there were 18 months where sales went down consecutively, and then, on month 19, it took off. So I would just love to know what signals he saw that gave them the strength and the focus to push through for over 18 months to get to the other side of that transformation. Because I think it’s a really amazing example of modernizing a brand and really doing the hard work that it takes to get to the other side. So, I think that’d be my, that’d be my pick and my question.

In this episode, Marketer’s Brief host Jon Springer interviewed Kate Trumbull, executive VP and chief marketing officer, Domino’s. Listen below, or read the transcript, which has been lightly edited for clarity.

Subscribe to the Marketer’s Brief podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music/Audible and YouTube Music.

How Domino’s thinks about value in today’s pizza value war

Jon:​ Is it right to characterize the pizza business as a value war going on right now?

Kate:​ Yeah, I would tell you that in the pizza business, the QSR [quick-service restaurant] business, we’re seeing so much value out in the marketplace. I think we know consumer sentiment is challenged, you know, at a low point, and brands are really trying to meet consumers where they are.

But then again, what really is value? I think it’s really only value if consumers say it is. A lot of brands try to chase it, try to have limited-time offers or offer deals on things that maybe people don’t want.

Our approach has really been around not only giving the best price-value for consumers, but giving them exactly what they want and the ability to have the most delicious products on our menu for the best deal. You’ve seen our Best Deal Ever work, which does just that, right?

For consumers, it doesn’t matter if you love stuffed crust or you love New York style. If you want three toppings, five toppings, we’re giving people that chance to customize and get to the most delicious product that they want.

I think it’s not just a price point; it’s the abundance and the ability to get exactly what you want that we’ve been trying to focus on. That’s what distinguishes Domino’s from the others.

Jon:​ Is there a reason that you’re able to do that and others might not?

Kate:​ Well, I think you have to be incredibly close to what your consumers want. We have the benefit of having always represented value over the years. We’ve had our Mix & Match deal for over a decade. That deal is just incredible value and it allows you to have variety on our menu. We’ve been doing things for many years—things like Emergency Pizza—that I think give us credibility, where consumers count on us for value. When times are tougher for consumers, you start to see some of the higher-end QSR brands drop value and it feels so out of the blue and really off-brand for them. And then it also starts to become a sea of sameness when everyone in the category is running toward deals.

Turning value into ‘talk value’ instead of a race to the bottom

Kate:​ That’s why I think we’ve created a platform where we’re trying to do value that is talk value, right? We’re trying to do things that not only give you value, but give you a why and give you a story, and it gets people talking and really noticing.

Going back to our paving and plowing for pizza are examples, our Carryout Tips, you know, not too long ago, when tip culture was pretty overwhelming, we did You Tip, We Tip.

We’ve come with Emergency Pizza and student loans. In addition to our everyday value with things like our Mix & Match deal and our weeklong carryout deal, we’ve tried to come at value in a way that is unexpected and shows that we’re there for consumers but always trying to be grounded in real-life tensions or insights about the consumer. I’d say that’s what stands out. And it’s not easy to do that. It takes a lot of creativity and planning and tech work. Whereas I think some folks in QSR maybe are desperate for traffic and they’re just throwing out a price point that they can pull off really quickly.

Jon:​ What kind of research do you need to do in order to tell what it is the consumer wants?

Kate:​ I think we do qual, we do quant. We really try to understand what is working about the deals that we offer today, and then also just understand what’s happening in the environment, in the macro and the pressures consumers are feeling. That can really lead to pretty insightful briefs that are incredible for agency partners to really ideate around, and come with these ideas like Emergency Pizza, Carryout Tips and You Tip, We Tip.

Using premium cues—black-and-gold packaging and collaborations—alongside sharp prices

Jon:​ In addition to the pizzas at sharp price points, you’re also leaning into some premium cues like the black-and-gold packaging and collaborations like one with Shinola. How do these things coexist?

Kate:​ Yeah, that one’s a really fun one because we’re both sort of Detroit-area brands, Michigan brands. I think I mentioned it a bit: the $9.99 is certainly an affordability play—anywhere you can get a large pizza under 10 bucks, with any toppings, is a pretty big affordability play. But again, it’s about giving people what they crave and having that abundance.

If we’re going to say you can get any pizza you want with up to seven toppings, especially in an environment where little things feel like a luxury to people—when they can’t afford a vacation, if they can get, you know, it’s the lipstick phenomenon, right? People don’t give up their makeup or their coffee in tough times. So it’s this idea of an affordable luxury that meets a customer’s need.

If they’re able to order our most premium pizzas, they also get access to our most premium gold-and-black box. It just makes our brand, I think, accessible. We’re trying to overdeliver on that value for them in unexpected ways.

The black and gold is just an example of that. Our Slice Sauce, where you can get that for free—our most delicious sauce we just launched that’s designed for pizza—I think we’re trying to create these moments of escape, a premium experience, getting the best thing you can for a fair price.

Building perceived value without training customers to wait for deals

Jon:​ How do you build perceived value without training customers to wait for deals?

Kate:​ Yeah, it’s a great question. I mentioned it, but I really believe one of our strengths as a brand over the last decade-plus has been this consistent value people could count on. The Mix & Match deal just is that. Not only was it consistent value for consumers at a really, really great price point, it also set a platform for innovation.

If we were going to innovate a new side, if we were going to bring salads in or come with a new dessert, we structured it so they all fit into this offer because we know how important it is and the frequency it drives when people experience it. It’s a consistent brand halo for us.

We continue to identify what consumers find valuable and then meet them where they’re at, always staying focused on this really interesting balance in our Hungry for More strategy of the most delicious food and renowned value. Again, it’s not just focusing on the price; it’s making sure we’re bringing product innovations that are so delicious that they’re worth paying what you pay for them and just anchoring to that consistent value.

We’re the number one brand in pizza, so we have Mix & Match, but we have weeklong carryout—$7.99 large one-topping pizzas—for a different occasion and a different consumer. We’ve been bringing Best Deal Ever back at different moments. We are seeing that sometimes that’s just a couple, whereas Mix & Match is really more group occasions. They all play a role and they can be very incremental.

Again, we’re not coming out with a different price point every week or doing flash deals constantly, which can be pretty confusing to consumers—or you only do this one deal on Friday, so people hold out till Friday. We give you the value that you need depending on where you are in the occasion spectrum, and you know it’s there and you can always come back for it.

Jon:​ Are you making progress with the perception of value?

Kate:​ I think we are. We have a strength in that; we’ve had an equity strength in that for quite some time. When you talk about the value wars, though, I will say that it can be a race to the bottom with no emotional layer to it.

You have to look outside your four walls—my four walls here in my office in Ann Arbor. In these tough economic times, we know people have less dollars in their pockets and it’s hard-earned money. We know the stakes are really high for us to get it right and offer the food that they want at the price that appeals to them, while giving them the best service.

We’ve really obsessed over our technology and our training and our approach on quality and affordability. We obsess so much on every single pizza, every single order. As everyone’s going out there talking value, you want to make sure you also have messages of quality. I think we’re on that right now a little bit with our premium series, because again, value is more than a price point—it’s what you get for what you pay for.

Inside Domino’s first global brand refresh in 13 years

Jon:​ Very few brands get away with updating their design anymore without encountering a lot of criticism. Some brands have decided it’s just not worth it. So how did you pull it off at Domino’s?

Kate:​ Yeah, it’s been an exciting process, I will tell you—22 months in the making. I think, as you mentioned in your question, there’s always some element of risk in making a change to your brand—and certainly a brand with 65 years of equity and people who have loved the brand in different ways at different times.

We put the time and the research and the listening in, to listen not only to our customers but our franchisees, many of whom this has been their life since they were 18. They’ve been around through many decades of the brand, and it was so important that they were bought in as well. We did those listening sessions. We did consumer research. We really aimed to understand what makes Domino’s so special.

We went after maximizing the aspects of our identity that people already love while incorporating additions that bake craveability directly into the brand itself. I am super proud of what the team was able to do in terms of building out our first sonic branding element. We all know the power of mnemonics, jingles, whatever you want to call them. We came with this crave mark.

I think the big aha was, “Wow, actually ‘mmm’ is already baked into our name,” right? Domino’s has always been in our DNA, and delicious quality, innovative food has always been there. We really wanted to honor our 65-year-old heritage, enhancing what already makes us great and really avoiding some sort of arbitrary change.

At the end of the day, pizza is incredibly fun. We know we have delicious pizza, and we wanted to make sure, through the mnemonic and the new colors and the new fonts, that craveability really comes through and that our brand feels as energetic and fun as it is and has been for the last 65 years.

Why now was the right time for a new identity—and how it reflects a digital-first era

Jon:​ How did you know it was the right time to do it?

Kate:​ I guess there were really a few reasons why we decided that now was the time to go. A couple of years ago, we conducted some consumer research and it helped us really figure out our new consumer target and our Hungry for More strategy. What we unveiled in that is that we have such an opportunity to continue to make our brand more craveable and delicious in every interaction.

There are so many ways you can do that. You can do that in how you shoot your food—how it looks. And then there’s also how the brand sounds, right? Not only in the sonic branding we just discussed, but in the voiceover talent that we use and even the tone of that talent.

We had been an announcer-type voice, and that didn’t feel as relatable in this era of creators and influencers. We wanted to have more of a friendly, relatable influencer that you really listen to and you value what they think be our voiceover. We tested our way into the perfect voiceover. And then even in the music, we were calling it “mmm instrumentals,” because it leans into the “mmm.”

It’s all these different pieces, in addition to really ramping our product innovation, that all laddered into the new strategy for the brand. The brand hadn’t done a brand refresh in 13 years, and things had become a little bit of a mix or a hodgepodge over time—what our website looked like versus what our stores looked like and what uniforms looked like.

It was a really cool moment to step back and create more powerful, consistent elements across the work. The other thing I’m super proud of is we’re a global brand. We’re in over 90 countries. This is the first time we did a global brand launch, and that’s just been so well received by many markets that have already adopted it. Others are coming and going to our rally in Vegas in two weeks, and we’re really excited to share all the examples.

I think brands probably every 10 to 15 years have to step back and go, “Wow, 13-plus years ago, we were in a print-driven world and now we’re in a social media, digital-first world, and our old look is not serving the new strategy.” It was time for a new corporate identity.

It was a really interesting process to bring everyone in the company along for that journey so they understood the why. With a brand with our heritage, so many people care so much. You want them to understand the why and that it’s tested and really loved by consumers.

Taking consumers through those focus groups when we had our mood boards of where we had been and where we’re going was one of the most fun parts of the project, because people really were pumped. They were excited—light users and heavy users. That’s another important thing: You need to talk to both. You don’t want to alienate your most loyal consumers.

One of the fun things was the insight from our premium series campaign we’re on now was actually from those focus groups. People saw the black-and-gold box and they were like, “My gosh, what is this? Do you only get this if you’re a VIP in the loyalty program? What’s in there?”

There was such intrigue and interest in this premium box that wasn’t our normal colors that we got really excited about: How do we bring that to life? How do we bring this new delicious sauce to life with it and have the packaging all lean into this black-and-gold elevated experience?

Jon:​ It’s fun. We saw over the last year that consumers online love to hate new designs. As you noted, Domino’s went over quite well.

Kate:​ Yeah, we feel really lucky that it did. I think we did our due diligence. But that’s the fun—now seeing it on social media and hearing my friends send me videos of their kids going, “Domino’s, snap, snap,” is such a cool thing, to see it out in the world and being embraced.

Celebrating an overdelivering Idaho driver with a national promotion

Jon:​ You’ve done a couple of interesting initiatives recently, including one related to a delivery driver in Idaho. What can you tell me about that story?

Kate:​ Yeah, it’s so inspiring. A delivery driver, he went above and beyond. There was a viral video that got recorded on the Nest Cam as he was delivering the food. The thing was they had ordered a 2-liter of Diet Coke and the store didn’t have it, so he went out of his way to go to another store and get the Diet Coke. It just warmed the hearts of the people that he delivered it to. He shared that he was retiring and they started a GoFundMe page, and it went crazy. He got so much media attention.

In this economy and with so much uncertainty in the world, to have a person be so thoughtful and generous and go the extra mile just really broke through to people. We’re so proud of Dan and we got inspired. We’re partnering with Coke to do this example of his goodwill and pay it forward.

From April 30 to May 3, Domino’s stores across the country are going to honor and celebrate Dan by giving customers a free 20-ounce Coca-Cola—whether it’s Coca-Cola, Diet Coke or Coke Zero—when they order online and use the code DanTheMan. Again, it’s those small moments that can have the biggest impact. This is just one way of continuing the spirit of generosity that was inspired by Dan. We’re going to celebrate his incredible action at our rally in two weeks. We’re just so proud of him and inspired. That’s the level of overdelivering that we strive to give to every customer in every order.

Jon:​ How did that look from your seat? In other words, how did it play out with the marketing department at Domino’s as it unfolded?

Kate:​ I mean, I think we all saw it and then we just saw it keep going viral. We reached out to Dan, and I think Dan was overwhelmed because “Good Morning America” was reaching out. He was getting all this press and he’s such a humble person.

Jenny and Danny on our PR team were really supportive of him. You don’t plan these things. Sometimes the most organic things in the world are the most exciting, and then you just think to yourself, “Is there any way we can shine a light on how great he is and how well he represents the brand?”

A CMO Kate admires—and the question she’d ask

Jon:​ Before we go, I’ll ask you to name me a CMO out there that you could learn from, and what would be your question for them?

Kate:​ I love that question, by the way. I’ve not heard that question. I would say Kory [Marchisotto], the CMO of e.l.f. Beauty.

[Editor’s note: Marchisotto was recently promoted to president at e.l.f.]

I just think she’s done incredible things. When you think about, you know, she was sort of the architect of cultural relevance at e.l.f. and really turned it into the No. 1 favorite beauty brand for Gen Z. I’d ask her: Kory, you’ve built a Gen Z marketing machine that most legacy brands are still trying to reverse engineer, honestly. But then again, Gen Z is somehow already aging into millennials, and we all know Gen Alpha is next. So how do you stay the favorite when the generation that chose you starts to grow up?

Jon:​ That’s a great question. I’d like to know myself. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. We hope to have you back again soon.

Kate:​ All right. Well, thanks for having me, Jon. Appreciate it.

In this episode, Marketer’s Brief host Adrianne Pasquarelli interviewed Dolores Assalini, head of Axe U.S. Listen below, or read the transcript, which has been lightly edited for clarity.

Subscribe to the Marketer’s Brief podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music/Audible and YouTube Music.

Adrianne:​ So let’s jump right into this new raffle campaign Axe unveiled a few days ago ahead of the World Cup. Essentially, this is a costume contest. You’re asking fans to showcase their wildest costume for the chance to win tickets to the World Cup. Can you tell me a bit about the strategy behind this campaign?

Dolores:​ So the excitement surrounding the FIFA World Cup 2026 really presented a massive opportunity for connection among young people, especially young guys. It’s one of the few moments where you see this kind of global energy, shared experience, huge cultural moment, whether you’re watching with your friends or in the stadium. So for us, it really felt like a natural moment to show up and to help our fans be a part of the energy, encouraging them to go out there with confidence, with a sense of humor and a little bit of Axe. So we felt it was really the right place for us to play, and that’s really where the idea of “Smell your best when you look your worst” came out of.

We are asking guys to wear their crazy costumes. We know they’re already doing that. We know they’re dressing up to watch their games, whether it’s a crazy costume or crazy face paint. So we figured this was such a natural moment to bring our product in and help them make that connection, even when they’re looking their worst.

Also read our Tuesday newsletter: Utility marketing—World Cup sponsors are rethinking the function of sports campaigns

Adrianne:​ And it feels like you can really build loyalty with these consumers because it’s so hard to get tickets for those people who end up winning the contest.

Dolores:​ Yes, absolutely. We’re hearing that it’s so difficult to get tickets. So as one of the official sponsors, we’re really excited to be able to offer the opportunity to get tickets by engaging with our brand, with our product, and really helping guys make that connection in real life, which we know is so hard to do today.

Adrianne:​ And it gives you more opportunities to interact with your own customers and also it should give you some user-generated content too. Is that the expectation?

Dolores:​ Absolutely. So this campaign is really the perfect combination of online and offline.

We know that young guys are on TikTok. They’re creating content, they’re commenting, they’re part of the social conversation. So, encouraging them to post UGCwith our product in their crazy costume is a way to reach them in a place where they’re already authentically living and communicating and engaging, both with brands, with friends and with communities.

But at the same time, we want them to live their life outside of their phone. And that’s where the idea of dressing up and going out and asking somebody out in person makes it such a fun campaign. It’s inherently fun and quirky and different and a way for our guys to get out into the real world and try to make that connection with a little bit of fragrance—and then post it online.

We think that the creation of UGC is not just great for us, but it’s also a great way for young guys to engage with each other and to put themselves out there in a way that is silly and quirky and is something that they’re already doing today. They’re already dressing up and being crazy. So giving them the opportunity to post it online and connect with each other through this craziness and this humor that is so inherent to young guys, we think is really fun and we’re really excited to see the content come through.

Adrianne:​ And you’re asking them only to post content on TikTok, or is it across all social channels?

Dolores:​ It’s primarily on TikTok.

Adrianne:​ And why just TikTok? Is that because it’s easier to track, easier to judge, or just because that platform is where your customers are?

Dolores:​ It’s really where our customers are. TikTok is the community where our young guys are engaging the most. That’s where we tailor most of our content to, I believe. But really the primary channel will be TikTok because that’s where most of our connection is happening. TikTok has been a place where traditionally users can be more unfiltered. It’s really just a place where more humor comes through, it’s less polished.

A place like Instagram is where people curate their content more. On TikTok, you can just be yourself, be funny, be silly. That’s really how TikTok started, right? With the silly dances and people just saying, “TikTok is my place where I can be myself. On Instagram I have to do the filter and the curation and make my page look cohesive.”

TikTok is a place where people can just be themselves and be funny and be crazy. So we think that’s the perfect opportunity and the perfect place for our guys to be themselves, put themselves out there in this crazy way and see how they can engage with each other. We’re really excited to see how that comes to life.

Breaking through World Cup clutter without the biggest budget

Adrianne:​ I know it’s hard to make a splash in this crowded marketing environment. How did Axe approach breaking through the clutter and making a voice for itself when it comes to the World Cup and its marketing?

Dolores:​ Yeah, so for us it really starts with being true to what Axe stands for, which is confidence, connection and fragrance. So rather than trying to compete on just scale and say we’re going to spend the most, be the biggest, have the biggest display or the biggest campaign, it’s really about focusing on an idea that felt distinctive, unique to our brand and really native to how and where our audience engages today.

So this combination of the simple, really bold participation CTA [call to action] and the social-first platform like TikTok allows us to show up in a way that cuts through and feels culturally relevant. We don’t have the biggest budget of all the FIFA sponsors, but we think that going out in a way that is authentically Axe and authentic to who our audience is—which is these young guys that are looking for connection—feels like the right way for us to play. It feels the most authentic and the way that we will stand out with our audience in a way that feels like us as a brand.

Adrianne:​ And leaning into that in-real-life connection point feels especially relevant for Gen Z. I read all the time that they’re looking to touch grass or looking to shop in person, looking for these actual experiences. So doing both seems like it should be helping you reach your target.

Dolores:​ Yeah. And Axe as a brand has always been about that. We’ve always been about getting out there. Really the only way to experience fragrance is in person. So we’ve always been a brand that has been about building connection for young guys and helping them do that through fragrance.

So we love this trend of people wanting to be out in the world and Gen Z saying, “I don’t want to be stuck in my basement staring at my phone or staring at my computer. I want to get out into the world and experience life outside.” And we help them do that by giving guys a little bit of self-care by putting on fragrance. It gives them that level of confidence to go up to somebody new and build a connection.

Adrianne:​ It is so funny, talking about fragrance, you can only experience it in life. But last year, I wrote about FragranceTok and how TikTok is a place where people are so excited to talk and learn about fragrance. How would you describe Axe on TikTok? What are the notes?

Dolores:​ Oh, you mean for the specific fragrances?

Adrianne:​ Right, if we were going to describe one on TikTok, what would you say?

Dolores:​ Well, our TikTok is very chaotic, but I think in the best way. Young guys have such different communities. So we speak to the anime community a lot. You look at our TikTok page, because those are the guys that are responding to us, and they love when we talk about our brand and understand their culture and what they care about. So you see a lot of that on our page.

But then at the same time, speaking to fragrance and layering fragrances and the more serious part of our brand, we love to say that we take nothing seriously except for fragrance. And that’s where that really comes through. We have fragrances like Apollo that have been around for 20 years, that people know and love and have been using forever. We were always targeting young guys, but I speak to guys all the time who are my age and will say, “Well, I’ve been using Apollo for 15 years, and it’s my favorite fragrance and I always get compliments about it.” We don’t have to explain the notes and the details. Everybody knows what Apollo smells like, especially anybody that went to middle school in the early 2000s, because it was just such an iconic fragrance.

At the same time, we have really decided to evolve with all these fragrance trends. Through things like FragranceTok, for example, we really have always been a brand that has used amazing fragrances. We’ve worked with top perfumers, and as we thought about how we evolve this brand from those amazing SKUs like Apollo or Phoenix or Dark Temptation that are so iconic and have been around for so long, we said, “Let’s take those fragrance credentials and take them into a premium space.” And that’s what the Fine Fragrance Collection was born out of.

So the Fine Fragrance Collection includes SKUs like Blue Lavender, Cherry Spritz, Black Vanilla that are just a little bit more sophisticated. They’re based off of prestige colognes and really giving guys an opportunity to have cologne-quality scents in a body spray at a more affordable price. We have that as part of our TikTok page as well, where we have some of those more serious and more almost grown-up scents that are a little bit more niche than something like an Apollo, that are really coming through in an interesting way on our page in a way that we didn’t have five, six years ago.

So we have really ensured that we grow up with some of our guys and give them opportunities beyond the fragrance that they’ve had for 20 years, which we still have, but we always want to make sure that we open the door for them to try new fragrances like a Blue Lavender or a Black Vanilla, which have been extremely popular since we launched them.

Adrianne:​ And when did you launch them?

Dolores:​ Blue Lavender was about two years ago and Black Vanilla was about three years ago.

Reinventing Axe’s spray to solve the ‘cloud’ problem

Adrianne:​ And let’s talk a bit about some of the other work that Axe has been doing this year. A while back, the brand unveiled a new bottle with controls that allowed users to spray less. This played into that well-known consumer perception of teenage boys overdoing it with their body spray—that kind of “Axe cloud” idea. Can you talk a bit about why you rolled out that product and how you marketed it?

Dolores:​ So over the years as a brand, we’ve heard the clear message from our consumers: Guys want to smell great, but they don’t want to overdo it. Too often, Axe sprays delivered a really heavy mist that could end up feeling overpowering or wasteful. So we have been working on this new spray technology to offer guys an opportunity to use our product without it feeling like too much and too overpowering. This new spray technology delivers a more concentrated spray that feels lighter. It’s more precise, it’s a lighter mist, but also has a longer-lasting scent. So it has the perfect combination of not feeling like you’re living in an Axe cloud, which we heard a lot.

@axe_ushow ready art thou for new AXE? #axebodyspray #new #history

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Having been on this brand for a year and a half, I hear a lot: “Oh, the middle school locker room, the Axe cloud.” It’s such a huge part of the brand’s history. But at the same time, the great fragrance is also a part of that history. So through this technology and through this campaign, we’re trying to maintain what made us great in the first place, which is the great fragrances, while also addressing the No. 1 concern with our brand and with this category, which is that young guys overspray it. Our spray was too much, too heavy, it had too big of a cloud. And now we’re addressing that with this new technology. So now you can have the best of both worlds. You can have the amazing fragrance with a lighter spray that lasts a little bit longer.

Adrianne:​ I was talking to a marketer at Claire’s, the Gen Alpha retailer, recently about how they’re connecting product and marketing more tightly in order to respond faster to trends. After hearing about the new spray bottles and the new products, I’m wondering how a brand like Axe functions with products and marketing. How closely together does your team sit with the products team?

Dolores:​ Very closely. So I, as the head of Axe in the U.S., oversee innovation, engagement and performance. My team works with R&D to bring products to market—so extremely close. And that’s always where we start. We want to make sure that our consumers get the best experience, both from a packaging standpoint, from a design standpoint and from a fragrance standpoint. So we really always start there. We want to make sure that we have amazing fragrances because that is the heart of our brand, and the delivery method—the can, the spray technology—is always a part of it.

So evolving that in 2026 was a huge priority for us. We wanted to remove the No. 1 barrier with the product, and that was the spray technology. As we go into 2026 and beyond, we wanted to think consumer-first, and this is the No. 1 thing that we changed. So we are really excited to bring this innovation to life.

Humor, masculinity and keeping Axe’s voice for Gen Z

Adrianne:​ As you mentioned earlier, Axe has a long history of using fun and cheeky humor in its marketing. Why is that a cornerstone to Axe’s approach, and how does it align with your play for Gen Z consumers specifically?

Dolores:​ Being a brand that’s about humor, fragrance and attraction has always been the core of our brand. Since we launched in France in 1983 and in the U.S. in 2003, those have been the three pillars that our brand has always been about. We have had moments where we’ve lost our way, but as we look to the future, we want to make sure that we take that legacy into the future.

What does change is how we speak about those three pillars and how we speak about our brand, and we continuously evolve with new generations. So, as you look at our past advertisements, you will see that we’ve had advertisements where it’s very much about the guy getting the 20 girls.

We know from our consumer research and from speaking to young guys that that’s not how they think about relationships or masculinity anymore. That has evolved so much. The guys that I dated in 2003 are definitely not the guys today—I think for the better. But as we think about how guys have evolved and the way that they think about fragrance and connection, it’s really different. And you will see that in the way that we communicate our brand.

And the same with fragrance. Again, 20 years ago, the fragrance market for young guys was much more limited than it is today. Young guys today know so much more about fragrance. Sometimes I feel like they know more than I do, as a woman who has worn fragrance since I was 13. They’re so sophisticated and they know so much because they have access to so much information on places like TikTok. So all the information about fragrance notes and top notes and middle notes and how to layer fragrances is at their fingertips. We have to make sure that we are evolving with those guys, and that’s where something like the Fine Fragrance Collection stands out, like I mentioned earlier.

We want to make sure that we maintain the heart of our brand around communicating our messaging in a humorous way, because young guys love humor, love things that are silly and fun and interesting. But at the same time, we want to make sure that we’re delivering the benefits of the technology with the product that they’re using and the fragrance, and what they expect out of a product like Axe.

Adrianne:​ Now, I believe Axe worked with social media agency the Pointer Brothers on the FIFA campaign. Are they a regular partner, and who else is on your list of agencies? How do you think about that roster as you consider new campaigns?

Dolores:​ The Pointer Brothers are new. I don’t believe we’ve ever worked with them before in the past. I’ve been on the brand for a year and a half and we have not worked with them recently. We’re really excited to partner with them.

As we think about partners for FIFA in particular, we want to make sure that we’re featuring young guys that do have that natural lean towards humor, soccer, and that align to the campaign of dressing up so they can smell their best when they’re looking their worst. The Pointer Brothers felt like the perfect partner for that.

And as we evaluate partners in the future, we think about, again, the three pillars: the fragrance, the humor and attraction. Especially as we think about ‘fragrance maxxing’ and layering, we want to make sure that we’re featuring influencers that speak to fragrance and those trends in a really strong way, because we take nothing seriously except fragrance, as I said earlier.

But humor is a huge part of our brand. So you’ll see a lot of the influencers that we work with and the celebrities that we’ve worked with in the past are really humor-heavy. Last year we worked with Pete Davidson. He is a celebrity that is very well known to be super funny—from his days on “SNL” to everything he does. We feel like he was a perfect partner for this brand. So really thinking about humor, fragrance, and also just the brand fit for our young guys—people that our young guys can look up to from a connection standpoint, from a fragrance standpoint, and somebody that they can just relate to.

Adrianne:​ Now, switching gears a little bit, let’s widen the conversation. What brands besides Axe are you loving right now that are really inspiring you? Who’s really killing it when it comes to the marketing that they’re doing?

Dolores:​ I am generally just inspired by brands that have really strong legacy but always remain relevant to their audience. I think that’s what we’re trying to do on Axe—a brand that can evolve and remain in the cultural zeitgeist. And especially brands that have done a really good job in turning themselves around.

Thinking like Abercrombie & Fitch, for example. They’ve done a really nice job of—they were super popular in the early 2000s, they hit a slump, and they have made a comeback in a way that has gotten them back into that cultural zeitgeist. So those are the type of brands that I really admire and the brands that I think about a lot as I evolve Axe and bring this brand into the future.

Adrianne:​ Right, those brands that are really telling a story, that have that narrative and also have that heritage. Especially for us with those brands that we grew up with, it’s nice to see that they’re still surviving.

Here’s a follow-up to that. We have a lot of CMOs on this podcast. If you could ask another CMO one question, what would it be?

Dolores:​ I love that question. I think I would ask them, “What keeps you up at night about the future of your brand?” I think what that does is it gives you a view into the big strategic questions that CMOs are always wrestling with. Because if you say to somebody, “What’s keeping you up at night tonight?” they could tell you it’s, you know, supply chain, or, “There’s an issue here that I’m worried about this campaign or that performance or this SKU underperforming.”

But if you think about what keeps you up at night for the future—what is your brand going to look like in five years, in 10 years? Axe looked really different 10 years ago than it does today. And how do you maintain the heart of the brand while thinking about how to evolve it into the future and what comes next—not just in next year’s campaign, but in the next five to 10 years?

In this episode, Marketer’s Brief host Erika Wheless interviewed Lisa Horton, chief creative and communications officer at David’s Bridal. Listen below, or read the transcript, which has been lightly edited for clarity.

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Erika: Very excited to talk about AI for this episode. I know it’s very happening, very popular in the industry. To help maybe orient a little bit, what some folks may not know is, David’s Bridal came back from bankruptcy and almost immediately, you guys announced this very sweeping AI-first strategy called “Aisle to Algorithm.” So really quickly, can you just tell us a little bit about what is this? And what problem are you trying to solve? What was not working before?

Lisa: Yeah. So April 1st of 2025 is when we announced Kelly Cook as our new CEO, as well as our “Aisle to Algorithm” strategy. And it’s really the culmination of our transformation — going from a traditional retailer to this 360-tech-enabled marketplace and ecosystem where we’re really connecting inspiration, planning and commerce into one unified platform. And so at the cornerstone of that is AI and technology. We really consider ourselves to be a technology company, not just a retailer. And as a part of that, we have expanded into several AI initiatives and offerings, both internally within our company and changing the way that we work and operate and think, as well as what we are doing with customers as well, which has been really exciting.

We launched Pearl Planner, which is the first AI-powered wedding planning platform. We built that entirely in-house with proprietary LLMs.

We also launched a retail media network and we’re really expanding on our digital experiences in store and online, which has also been really exciting. But our goal is to really meet brides from the first moment of inspiration. Brides are typically entering our funnel in our ecosystem 12 months before they even get engaged. In our minds, if we are catching her at the moment of engagement, we might be a little bit too late. So we’re really leveraging AI and technology to allow us to propel our entire funnel and journey and we really believe firmly that this is an entire shift in our business model and how we’re really tackling the pain points of the broader wedding ecosystem. So we’re excited about the flywheel that we’re creating around AI, not just from a marketing perspective, but holistically in terms of our business operating model.

Erika: And so my understanding is that a part of this is you guys are using AI to optimize press releases, blog posts, even like the product content on page, like product pages with AI search in mind. So walk me through that in practice. What does that look like? What’s changed on your backend?

Lisa: Yeah, so we have a really fantastic team in-house. Our head of search and optimization, she’s brilliant and she works with some of our in-house team as well as our great agency partners. We put SEO, AEO, GEO, all the EOs, they’re all top of mind of everything that we do. And one of the things that we have learned in the last probably, not even 12 months, but really the last six months, is, as we all know, there have been changes to the Google algorithm. And obviously with AI search now being so top of mind of how people are searching and shopping. We need to think about content differently, whether that’s press releases, blog posts, or like you said, just optimizing content on our site. And so it’s really important that we are looking at all of the opportunities for how we can best optimize that before we even start it.

Because I think a lot of times what happens is folks will draft a press release or they’ll put together content and then they’ll connect with their optimization or SEO partners and say, “Great, now how do we optimize this?” We start from the opposite end where the first thing I want are keywords and phrases and how are people searching and then using that to actually shape how we’re telling stories and how we’re talking about it in ways that are searchable and are going to also help us when it comes to AI particularly. So that’s really important.

And I think another big focus of ours is making sure that we are driving discoverable products through AI. So we have been partnering with Shopify. We migrated to Shopify last summer and through there, our entire inventory online is fully shoppable in ChatGPT and Microsoft Copilot. So we’re really proud to kind of be one of the first that’s really moving forward in that because we really believe that that is going to be the forefront of shopping and search and commerce moving forward.

Erika: I want to get into the AI shopping aspect, let me come back to the SEO, AEO, all the EOs and talking about let’s start with the optimization first. So let’s start with our SEO, our AEO and then go from there. Can you give an example of that? I’m curious — are there certain keywords that you’re like, I did not think that that would be something we should include in AEO, but we should, or how has it changed what you put on product pages?

Lisa: Yeah, I think when you’re thinking about SEO and AEO, you have to put yourself more so in the mindset of the customer than ever before, right? Because you want to figure out, “How is she searching?” One of the funny things I used to laugh about is we always used to say, “guest of wedding.” And no one is probably searching, “guest of wedding.” They’re probably searching wedding guests, right? Wedding guest dresses or things like that. Now, maybe there is someone that is, but, we say this all the time internally, we don’t wanna market to ourselves. Just because it’s nomenclature in terms that we like to use internally, doesn’t mean that that’s necessarily how she shops or how she searches. So it’s really important for us. We do a lot of quantitative and qualitative studies and surveys. Our insights team is really fantastic, as I talked about, our search team is really great. We are constantly looking at search terms and making sure that we are then optimizing our content. And we also really believe in real time shifts and pivots. I think that’s also really important. A lot of times we, as retailers, particularly, we of course like to plan ahead and we want to plan seasonally and monthly, but for us, if we see that something is spiking, we wanna be able to move really fast in that. Whether that’s how we’re merchandising our product on our PLP (product listing pages) and categories, or again, maybe we’re working with our team to put out a specific type of press release that talks about a certain offering. So for instance, we’re seeing spikes in things like black wedding dresses. So we wanna go ahead and increase that. And what’s very cool is because David’s is vertically integrated, we own everything from sketch to the final product. We can not just talk about it, we can be about it, which I think, maybe I’m biased, but, we’re probably one of the few retailers who can really do that. And what I mean by that is, for instance, when we saw when the show “Wednesday” came out, this search term for black wedding dresses really spiked. And so what we actually did was not just change how we were merchandising on our pages and leaning into content across our website or putting out content across social or other marketing channels, we actually were able to go and increase production in black dresses and actually bring customers more options quicker and really close that entire gap and that entire loop for the consumer. So that’s really exciting.

Erika: Okay, let’s come back to the agentic shopping element of this. I’m curious how are you guys thinking about which of the, I guess I’m going say like the AI pipes, I guess, to invest in? I mean, are you happy with being like, we’re happy with what we’re already seeing? Are you still waiting for certain results to come in?

Lisa: Yeah, no it’s early still. We just launched through Shopify’s agentic storefront and we’re pretty pleased so far with what we’re seeing. I think it’s all about creating that frictionless shopping journey for our customers. So they’re going into ChatGPT or they’re going into Copilot and they’re searching for “blue bridesmaids dresses.” And what we love about it is it’s really closing the gap because it’s allowing them to stay within the chat, find what they’re looking for and actually purchase it, right? So that is a structural shift really in how consumers discover and buy. What we have seen in recent reports is that more than 70% of consumers are saying that they’re willing to complete purchases directly within AI environments.

So again, we want to meet the customer where they already are. That is going to provide a win-win for everyone. And so we are really bullish in continuing to invest in these types of channels. And we’re investing in those channels, not just from, again, a consumer perspective, but even internally. We use AI workflows and private instances internally in every single part of our business, from the marketing team to our merchandising team to our IT team to our customer service team. So we’re really very much invested in AI in general.

Erika: I want to talk about the Pearl Planner that you guys have. So yes, this is an AI-powered wedding planning tool. I think that this was already getting a fair amount of traction and you were seeing good results. I believe, correct me if I’m wrong, but you guys hadn’t put any marketing materials behind it either. It was just taking off. What does that tell you about how brides are going through their wedding process and what does that tell you about marketing for a tool within an AI-backed tool?

Lisa: Yeah, we are so pleased with the results so far of Pearl Planner. We are excited in the balance of 2026 to really put more of a concerted marketing effort around it. We’re actually going to be announcing some new features in the next few weeks and a couple other iterations. We just announced our first collection with Vera Wang Bride. We actually launched that today, so, the new bridal and bridesmaids collection is now live.

And as a part of that, we’re actually launching a Vera Wang Bride x Pearl Planner version as well, really geared more towards a luxury bride and a more designer price point for those that are planning their weddings or even working with wedding planners to plan their weddings. They can still utilize Pearl Planner together to really create the best experience possible. Going back to what you were saying, what we’ve seen from early adoption is they’re spending more time on Pearl Planner than we’ve seen in traditional app spaces, which tells us that it’s providing a real resource for her, which is really exciting for us. We didn’t want this to just be another version of a Google spreadsheet or another version of a platform that just basically collates all the information that you already have. It was really important for us that this truly focused on tackling the pain points and the stress around planning your wedding. Planning your wedding should be fun. It should be celebratory, it shouldn’t be stressful. But typically when a bride gets engaged, the first emotion she feels is excitement. The second emotion she feels is stress. And she’s stressed for the next 12 to 18 months. And we really don’t want that to be the case. We want her to be excited and really be looking forward to every aspect.

And the other thing too is that typically the person that’s planning the wedding—they compartmentalize so much and they really kind of look at things in a milestone perspective. But when we broke down those milestones, we really found out that on average there’s 300 tasks to planning a wedding. So when you think about something like an engagement photo shoot, for instance, you’re not just saying, okay, we’re going to go take pictures. It’s, “What am I wearing? What is my partner wearing? Am I getting hair and makeup done? Where are we shooting? Do we need to rent a space? Who is the photographer? Are we using these for our invitations? Are we using these for our save the date?” So there’s all these different things. And so what we’re really seeing too is that brides are so excited to really see all of the tasks truly laid out in front of them to make sure that they’re not forgetting anything. It’s, reducing that stress of the burden of, “Oops, I forgot to put this on my to-do list” because Pearl has it right here.

Pearl is also agentic. So you can go ahead and talk to Pearl. We want her to feel like a second maid of honor in a way for you. And you can tell her, “Hey, my florist unfortunately canceled” and Pearl’s going to say, “No problem. Here’s four other florists that we can reach out to within your budget, in your vicinity. And here’s the next steps that we should tackle.” Pearl can help you. And actually what we’re seeing is brides are talking to her about the feelings that they have for their wedding and so they’re really looking to her to say, “Hey my mother-in-law wants to invite 10 more people. How do I approach this topic?” So we’re continuously teaching Pearl how to handle and navigate some of these more emotional conversations because it’s more than just the tactile parts of a wedding right though the stuffing the envelopes and booking the vendors there’s a lot of other kinds of mental and emotional tasks that also fall on her. So we’re really excited to see how Pearl continues to really be that sidekick, whether you’re planning your own wedding, whether you’re using a planner, it doesn’t matter. I think there’s benefits to using Pearl in general. I always like to talk about AI for good. Pearl to me is a prime example of AI for good, right? So it’s really about providing such a unique resource that I think is really needed and is actually helping you think better, not just again collating information for you.

Erika: So if you guys are not putting a huge marketing budget behind Pearl, how, I’m curious how people are finding this tool. What has kind of been your funnel into Pearl?

Lisa: We did have some light marketing when Pearl first started, we did do a press release and things like that. But where I think our team has been so strategic is integrating Pearl into our overall shopping journey. So when you are going in store and purchasing a wedding gown and you’re booking an appointment, you know, as a part of our life cycle journey, we’re also introducing you to Pearl as a part of that. And so we’re really seeing great adoption from folks that are purchasing online and a really great adoption from our brides that are booking an appointment and coming in store. Part of some of the new features that we’ve been kind of slowly rolling out within Pearl too is again, back to reducing those pain points and it helps to bring more folks into the funnel are things like our bridesmaids collaboration tool. So we’re actually allowing you to connect with your bridesmaids, share three or four different types of bridesmaids dresses or colors and allow them to upvote or downvote the ones that they like. Again, it’s helping to try to take as much pressure off the bride as we can. And so, I think that our team has been pretty genius in how they’ve connected Pearl into other parts of our life cycle journey.

Erika: Okay, we’ve talked a lot about the AI side of things and I’m not going to say that we’re moving totally away from that, but I want to bring in the retail aspect of this. And I want to talk about Diamonds and Pearls. So folks who don’t know, this is a more maybe upscale version, I’m going to say, of a David’s Bridal. And these stores have a touch screen, if I’m not mistaken, where brides can shop. This is a really specific bet it feels like, right, it’s a smaller footprint it’s higher end but it seems more tech forward why test these or like what problem does this solve that maybe a regular David’s Bridal store doesn’t quite meet?

Lisa: Yeah, we really, this was a blend, a marriage, one might say, of technology and hospitality. That’s really kind of where this all started from. And Diamonds and Pearls, as you said, is our boutique retail concept. And so it’s where you’ll find some of our exclusive designers and exclusive designs from those designers like Marchesa, Viola Chan Couture, Oleg Cassini, you’ll also see some exclusive pieces from the Vera Wang Bride collection in that store. It has some of our higher price points as well. But it really was where we can provide our customer with a more hospitality-first approach. So when you walk in, you’re welcomed with a glass of champagne and the decor is really stunning and it feels more akin to a boutique-like setting. It’s also about a third of the square footage of a traditional David’s Bridal and therefore has about a third of the amount of SKUs in that store compared to a traditional David’s Bridal. So it’s a much more curated experience. And so we wanted to make sure that while we’re providing that curated experience, one of the beautiful parts of David’s Bridal is our entire ecosystem. And we didn’t want to hinder that customer experience. And so that’s where we brought in what we like to call our “endless aisle technology.” So these are full scale— I’m talking like taller than I am. I think they’re about five feet tall — these screens. And they are fully touchscreen, fully interactive. You can shop everything on our website. You can order it directly there in the store. If you’re in with your friends and you’re looking at bridesmaids dresses, going and taking a look and seeing what other styles that come in that material or what colors come in that style.

And so it’s really helping to bridge the gap. I think one of the big differentiators for us for David’s Bridal is the fact that we are omni-channel. And so we really wanted to figure out a way to bridge that gap. This endless aisle technology has really done that for us. And what we’ve seen too is that it’s really brought in more of that Gen Z shopper. She really wants that inspirational experience when she comes in the store. She wants it to feel highly personalized. She’s excited about technology. And so that is what we were able to provide in this Diamonds and Pearls location and concept.

Erika: I’m curious if the new concept was more informed by customer behavior or like digital data that you guys were seeing.

Lisa: I would say a little bit of both, to be honest, right? I think what we saw was, as I mentioned, we do a lot of qualitative research. We’re constantly surveying not only our customers and our guests and our brides, but we’re also serving those that are just in the market in general. We want to know where they’re shopping, what they’re excited about, what do they have an appetite for? And we definitely saw that there was an appetite for more of that boutique experience, wanting a little bit more of that personalized experience, a bit of a more curated selection. And she also wants to be able to have that in-person experience, but not feel like she is missing out on something that maybe isn’t available in the store. And so it was definitely informed by a little bit of both.

Erika: All right, so since the “Aisle to Algorithm” strategy launched, at least I’m curious if there’s anything like, this is the thing that I would point to, “We know that it is working. Here is the metric that tells us this has been working for us.”

Lisa: Yeah, I’m not sure. We’ve done a lot and I don’t say that lightly. I mean, it’s been such a whirlwind the last 12 months and we are so excited to actually start putting some of the things that we’ve been talking about now into, have really brought it into fruition. So we’ve launched Travel by David’s. We’re now in a complete one-stop shop to do everything from booking your honeymoon to concierge travel. We’ve talked about Pearl Planner.

But I think one of the most successful parts of our strategy has been the fact that this is all built upon an asset-light business model. And so what that means is that we are really looking to expand our offerings and our solutions to our customers without necessarily having to invest at the same level that we were investing in, you pre-bankruptcy, for instance, or, really relying on such heavy capital. And so the way that we’ve been doing that is by creating and establishing some incredible partnerships with really fantastic brands and allowing that to be drop ship or building “shop in shops” inside of our David’s Bridal.

So I think a few examples of that is, when we initially partnered with Marchesa last April and they were our first couture designer that we sold both in-store in Diamonds and Pearls as well as online. And we are successfully selling $9,000 dresses online. And people were questioning, “Can we do that?” And the answer that we always knew was gonna be the case is yes, we can. Because one of the things that no matter how much technology we put forward and having innovation at our core, we’re also human-first. For instance, we have an incredible virtual stylist team. You’re speaking to real people who are experts in what they’re doing. They’re experts in how to measure you from home and how to get you exactly what you need. So during that process of purchasing a couture piece like a Marchesa or a Vera Wang Bride dress online, you’re working with that virtual stylist. So we’re, again, we’re marrying human, humanity and human expertise with technology. And we’ve seen tremendous success there. And we have a lot of other really exciting partnerships and collaborations coming up.

I think another great example too has been our work with personalization mall, “P mall,” affectionately dubbed, and they power all of our personalized gifts on our website. So now through technology, you don’t have to leave our site anymore to go and purchase a personalized gift from P Mall. You can go ahead and personalize it directly on our website. And we’ve seen such a tremendous lift in our gift category because of that. And again, it’s all about removing friction for the consumer, so allowing them to be able to do that right there on our site has been really successful.

Erika: All right, to wrap it up, Lisa. So as you know, we talked to a lot of marketers on this podcast. So if you could ask a CMO or another marketing executive one question, who would you ask and what would it be?

Lisa: So I thought about this for a long time and I don’t know about you, but I am a Bravo fan through and through and I’ve for a long time have actually followed Bozoma St. John and I think she’s so incredible and she just was the first person that popped into my mind. And I think the work that she did particularly at Uber has really helped to shape the way that I think about campaigns and the way that we think about branding and culture. And so I would love to ask her — how did you decide when your brand should lead culture versus follow it? And I think that’s such an intriguing question. We try our best to figure out how to balance it in terms of how do you be a trendsetter and when to jump on the trend and how do you do it in a way that feels authentic? And, you know, I would love to be able to pick her brain on something like that.

In this episode, Marketer’s Brief host Adrianne Pasquarelli interviewed Rachel Behm, chief marketing officer of Suave parent company Evermark. Listen below, or read the transcript, which has been lightly edited for clarity.

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Adrianne:​ Now, I know you handle a portfolio of brands at Evermark, but the one I wanted to focus on first is Suave. A lot of us grew up with Suave TV ads, and I remember that campaign that compared prestige, expensive shampoo to budget-friendly Suave products and how no one could spot the difference between these two beautiful heads of hair. But for your recent campaign, which is targeting Gen Z, you went fully social-first with no TV. Can you talk a little bit about that strategy?

Rachel:​ Yes, absolutely. And I love that you’re referencing our brand advertising from the past because our ethos hasn’t changed. We are offering phenomenal formulas at a super accessible price point. But just the way in with consumers has had to change. So as a legacy brand, we’re actually having to behave more like a challenger brand to be invited into people’s scroll—to get them to pause for a second. We need an angle of entertainment and storytelling that’s combined with those amazing product benefits at our affordable price points.

Adrianne:​ So was there a particular consumer insight that led you down this path?

Rachel:​ In particular, with our new exfoliating body washes, that’s where we’re targeting a younger consumer. And first we have to have the product that makes sense for this generation to be able to have permission to talk about it.

So these formulas are super luxurious in fragrance. We have “smells as good as” claims against [higher-priced competitor] Sol de Janeiro. [Suave brands are] sulfate-free. So first, it was about having that product that we knew resonated with Gen Z consumers, which we validated through consumer research. And then second was, “OK, where are they watching media, how are they consuming it, and what messaging is going to resonate?” With our “Don’t smell like your ex, smell like your exfoliating body wash” campaign, it’s really invited us into the scroll of Gen Z in that entertainment-first way, but then landing the message they’re really used to knowing from Suave—which is phenomenal products and experiences at an affordable price point.

Adrianne:​ I definitely want to get into that creative because it’s super fun. But before we do that, which social platforms is the content for primarily? Did you have a platform in mind specifically when you started to think about this “content as entertainment” strategy?

Rachel:​ Great question. We actually have a suite of different assets that work for different platforms. So there’s the entertainment angle of “Don’t smell like your ex,” then we have influencer and creator content, and then we have a little bit more traditional, kind of product-benefit content. We are across Meta, TikTok and Snapchat. And interestingly, the results are showing us that different types of content are working better or worse on different platforms, so we continue to optimize as we go.

Adrianne:​ So can we unpack that a little bit and figure out which content was best for which platform? So TikTok—I feel like that’s more episodic, or...?

Rachel:​ Surprisingly, we’re seeing on TikTok our “works as well as” claims driven by creators telling the message, and influencers telling the message, is what’s working best for us. On Meta is where we’re seeing the brand retainment in longer form. Our 30-second version of “Don’t smell like your ex” is performing really well. I mean, who watches 30 seconds anymore? But we’re seeing that entertainment hook keep people through for the full messaging. And then it’s in our retail media and lower-funnel pieces that the more product-benefit messaging is working really well.

Adrianne:​ So that kind of messaging, where it just says the new scent or something like that?

Rachel:​ Like “sulfate-free,” “gentle exfoliation,” the ingredient story and the fragrances—yes.

Adrianne:​ And let’s talk a little bit about that fun creative especially, which would be fun for anyone who has an ex-romantic partner. I’ll let you explain to our listeners the crux of the setup behind this “Don’t smell like your ex” exfoliating body wash campaign.

Rachel:​ Perfect. So first, you have to understand a little bit what the product is. It’s four exfoliating body washes that are totally new to the Suave brand and in these current gourmand fragrances like Strawberry Delight and Pistachio. You pair that product offering with the fact that we know a lot of Gen Z has dealt with breakups. Also, they’re big thrifters.

So I’ll tell you how these two things come together in the storytelling. The setting is a thrift shop where people can come in and exchange their hoodie or a candle or something that smells like their ex in order to get a Suave body wash and upgrade their scent to the Suave body wash scents. The setting is this old-school thrift shop where there are over-the-top, comedic effects where people are coming in and saying things like, “Don’t smell like regret. Smell like your exfoliating body wash.”

Adrianne:​ No one wants to smell like regret. What kind of feedback have you been seeing so far? I know the campaign’s been in market for a few weeks now.

Rachel:​ Yeah. And as you know, in this day and age, a few weeks is like—we’re looking at daily information. So, a few weeks in, we are seeing phenomenal results.

We’re beating our KPIs on video views and on engagement. And while this isn’t one of our internal KPIs, we have seen that there’s been over 500 shares on pieces of paid advertising, which, in this environment where you’re trying to get attention, sharing advertising, I feel like is a sign of this being something that people are really enjoying and feeling like they want to share with their network. Additionally, the comments around the product-use experience and people trying it and loving it is super encouraging to us—that we’re not just putting out entertaining content, but it’s driving conversation and conversion of people actually trying out the product and loving it.

Adrianne:​ The shares are interesting. I wonder if people are sharing it with their exes!

Rachel:​ I know, right? Or you have a girlfriend that is going through it.

Adrianne:​ So are there any early lessons from some of this engagement—from some of the shares, the comments—that are helping to inform how you’re going to continue the campaign or future campaigns?

Rachel:​ Yeah, absolutely. We mentioned TikTok earlier and what we’re seeing working and not working there. Some of the pieces that we’re leaning into and creating more of for the TikTok environment are, one, a kind of lo-fi introduction to the “Don’t smell like your ex” campaign. Rather than have it be the branded spot from the beginning, if we have a hook that ties much more to something that’s going on as a social trend on TikTok and then convert to the lo-fi, little behind-the-scenes footage that we shot during the broader shoot, those are doing really well. So we’re mastering up some more pieces to put into the algorithm.

Secondarily, those “works as well as” and “smells as good as” claims that have been doing so well from creators—we’re also filming more of those to get more into the algorithm. So that’s TikTok. On Meta, we’re continuing with our longer-form entertaining content and scaling back on the more product-focused messaging based on what we’re seeing on view rates, click-through rates and comments.

Balancing Gen Z growth with longtime Suave loyalists

Adrianne:​ This is a question that comes up with a lot of older heritage brands that are trying to adjust their marketing strategies to court younger consumers. As you are going after these Gen Z customers with this social-first campaign, with no TV like you used to for Suave, how are you still trying to maintain the older brand loyalists, especially in a category that is so competitive?

Rachel:​ It’s a great question. For us, our creative really needs to fight outdated brand perceptions. So it’s less about awareness that many brands and challenger brands need, and more about changing that perception. We’re doing it in a couple of different ways.

“Don’t smell like your ex” is a good example of where we’re aiming younger, for a Gen Z audience. The product fits it, our media target fits it. However, this is still entertaining content for our core consumer. It doesn’t mean we’re alienating somebody who’s maybe in the 50-plus demographic or has been buying Suave body wash for years. This also comes across her feed and she says, “Hey, this is something different and more modern from Suave.” We also have many legs of the stool in the Suave portfolio. We have a women’s hair care business, we have a men’s business, we have a deodorant business, we have body wash. So there are different parts of our product portfolio that allow us to focus on different demographics.

Within our hair care new products, for example, we have a full sulfate-free range that people can get for the first time under $5—amazing sulfate-free hair care formulas—that is targeted more at our existing core audience and is a lot more focused on benefits and functionality of those products than it is pure entertainment. So we kind of have the luxury of having these different parts of our portfolio that allow us to try different things with different audiences.

Adrianne:​ And in terms of channel mix, those are also social-first at this point, right?

Rachel:​ Correct, they are. We’re dabbling with some CTV and some YouTube, but watching performance across all the platforms and seeing what plays out. What’s different about our younger audience targeting versus older audience targeting—we have Snapchat in the mix for our exfoliating body wash campaign, and it’s been exceeding our benchmarks by 2x. So Snapchat’s still doing really well for us in the younger demographic, but we don’t have that as one of our pieces of the channel mix for our hair care line.

Adrianne:​ And what agencies did you work with on this recent campaign for Suave?

Rachel:​ Our paid media agency is Stella Rising. We’ve been with them since we became a company two and a half years ago. [Yellow Wood Partners acquired Suave from Unilever in 2023.] Phenomenal women-led, women-owned organization that is on this journey with us. From a creative standpoint on the “Don’t smell like your ex” campaign, we worked with Born Social—I think their name says it all, that they’re born social and led us on this social-first journey. And then with our hair care launch and the sulfate-free range, we worked with Matter Energy, which has a mix of our more CTV-traditional assets combined with what we’re doing in social as well.

Reframing value as ‘smart luxury’ in a trade-down economy

Adrianne:​ Now, in addition to Suave, you also run marketing for ChapStick and Q-tips. With the current economy and gas prices, it feels like there’s an opportunity for some of these drugstore brands, including Suave, to capture some share of the luxury beauty players as shoppers trade down to be more affordable. Are you repositioning your brands at all to capture some of this potential share? How are you thinking about that?

Rachel:​ Yes, absolutely. What we’re seeing from consumers in this economy is that they are trading down in price, but they are not trading down in expectations. So it is on us to reframe value not as cheap, but as smart luxury. What a great opportunity for these iconic brands that everybody knows to regain the love, attention and relevancy with a new generation of consumers. So what you’ve seen on Suave over the last two years—total rebranding and social-first advertising and new products—we are also bringing to the ChapStick brand and the Q-tips brand. So stay tuned for some very big news on ChapStick coming to stores near you this summer.

Adrianne:​ What about as you think about better connecting with customers? We’re seeing an uptick in customer service chatbots and some of these new connection points. Do your brands use AI bots at all? Or how does someone with a question about sulfate-free or ingredients or something like that get in touch with you?

Rachel:​ That’s a great question. Our socials are the best way to engage. We have assistance from bots to help spot things, but we have humans behind answering, collecting and watching trends. So that’s our easiest way if you have a question about products or you want to know more. Then we have a more traditional customer service line that ensures we’re covering anything if anybody has a product issue or a question about where to buy. And we monitor all of that on an ongoing basis to see if there are any trends or insights in the data that can help us run our business better and serve our consumers better.

Adrianne:​ Yeah, it feels like social—on Instagram, that’s where I am always contacting brands anymore, because I feel like that’s where you get the best response rate.

Rachel:​ It’s so true. It’s so true. And we learn so much. We scrape ratings and reviews weekly to see what people are saying on new products. We’re running social listening now. You have to imagine with brands in the portfolio called Suave, ChapStick and Q-tips, sometimes the social listening is difficult because those are brand names that people either use as normal words or that they use for category cues. So when it comes to ChapStick, we have to make sure we’re hearing and listening when people are actually talking about the ChapStick brand.

Adrianne:​ Right. That’s definitely a challenge. So let’s widen the conversation a bit. I’m curious about who you’re inspired by right now. What brand would you say is really killing it in marketing?

Rachel:​ I am inspired by so many different brands, but if I think of the ones that are most relevant to what we can do here, it’s the ones that have really high brand awareness, have been iconic in the past, and maybe just lost a little relevance—and they’re getting it back. So to me, Gap is one at the top of my list of who’s really regaining. I think they’re borrowing social relevance from other people in the social sphere right now and pulling it back into their Gap brand, so Gap is one that I’ve been really impressed with.

Another in the fashion industry, I would say, is Levi’s. You’re seeing these brands again that maybe had a dated perception, but in the last couple of years have really come out as something modern and relevant to a new generation of consumers.

Adrianne:​ Yeah, those are two real textbook examples, I think, when we look back at a brand that’s really regained relevance. And Gap—to your point earlier about entertainment—Gap has really leaned into that a lot as a kind of marketing-as-entertainment. Most of the campaigns they’ve done recently are super long. They’re three minutes or a couple of minutes long, these music videos, but they’re entertaining. And Levi’s was a bit of a standout during the Super Bowl, too.

Rachel:​ Absolutely. I think they’re inspirations, because what is the right balance between pure entertainment and making sure that you’re doing justice to the product that you want people to know about? Especially with Suave as an opening price point brand and our goal being keeping those prices accessible—how do we do that in a super-efficient way with marketing? The way that we keep our prices so low is by the huge volume that we do, the tremendous household penetration that we have and how we can market really smartly.

Adrianne:​ Have you had any challenges in terms of pricing—keeping the prices really low—with the tariffs and the current economy?

Rachel:​ I think anybody in the consumer packaged goods space will tell you it’s a challenge right now. There are probably daily meetings with our supply chain and executive leadership team that say, “OK, what are tariffs today? Run this math through the model. What does that mean for cost increases?” But we still are staying true to what our core value is to our consumers and being as accessible as we possibly can. So we’re doing everything we can to mitigate those costs and those disruptions, because now is a rare window to win over long-term users into the brand while they’re seeing so many other products in the marketplace increase in price.

But if I told you it was a non-factor, I would be lying, because it’s something that we discuss daily—how we can keep our accessible price points while prices continue to go up.

Adrianne:​ And this next question is kind of a bit of a follow-up to the brands that you’re watching or paying attention to. We have a lot of CMOs on this podcast. If you could ask another CMO one question, what would it be, or who would you want to ask a question?

Rachel:​ Oh my gosh, that’s a great question. I’ve always been an admirer of Indra Nooyi [former PepsiCo CEO], from her team leadership and deciding to work on what matters. In a day and age where you can get your fingers on almost any piece of data, and in a world where AI is advancing so quickly, you could easily spend so much of your time on any one of these different pieces. But how do you keep the appropriate high-level view to make sure that your forecasting and your leadership is at the right altitude, despite the access we have to every tiny, minutiae piece of data today?

Adrianne:​ We are almost out of time, but is there anything else ahead for your brands that we should be on the lookout for, in terms of what you’re focusing on this summer? I know you teased a little bit about ChapStick coming out soon. Anything else that you want to mention?

Rachel:​ Yes. I will say not only will you see a brand glow-up on the ChapStick brand, but we will be entering a new format that people have been asking us for, for a very long time, on the ChapStick business.And Q-tips—if you think about what it’s most famous for, it is its quality and its cotton. So if you put those two things together and think about what innovation might be coming from Q-tips, that’s next on the docket. That’s just a couple of months out.

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In this episode, Marketer’s Brief host E.J. Schultz interviewed Amy Marentic, chief marketing officer for Genesis Motor America. Below is the transcript, which has been lightly edited for clarity.

How Genesis turns lack of legacy into a luxury advantage

E.J.:​ In automotive, legacy—a long history—has been seen as a strength. You look at BMW, Mercedes, constantly leaning into their heritage. But Genesis is a younger brand, and what you guys have done is actually turned your youth into a strength. Can you explain how you are doing that?

Amy:​ Yeah. We did. When I first came on to the brand, we were meeting with one of our chief designers, and he said something that really resonated with me. I asked him what makes it different to design a Genesis? And he said, “simple.” He said, “We’re untethered. We have no history that we have to design from. We can simply look into the future, look into the consumer and what they want, and we can design for that.”

And that really stood out for me. So instead of following rules, we can really write our own rules, and it’s a real opportunity for us to lean into modern luxury.

E.J.:​ How big of a pivot was this for Genesis when you started?

Amy:​ You know, the global brand message is “disruption refined.” And so we still use that very much at our core, but we use it in a bit of a different way.

There really is a paradox of two brands. It’s our brand in Korea that is very much the heart and soul of the country, and then our brand in America, where our awareness is low. I often describe it as we moved into a new neighborhood where the neighbors have lived there for 100 years. And how do we make our own way? That’s something that we’re working to do now.

Aligning the global brand with a low‑awareness U.S. market

E.J.:​ So you had that big idea. You have the brief. What were some of the key steps you took to change the messaging, change the way people thought about the brand internally before you started creating your advertising?

Amy:​ We wanted to make sure we stayed true to the global brand, because the global brand is very important. It’s been incredibly successful in Korea. But we also wanted to make sure that we gave people a reason to notice, right?

We moved into this new neighborhood where all of the neighbors knew each other. Nobody was asking for another luxury brand. But it really gave us an opportunity to say why we were different, why we were unique. And the tagline that we’re using is “Welcome to Genesis.” We want to make sure that when somebody is interested in a luxury brand, and when they’re looking for something new and fresh, that we’re on their shopping list. So being very inclusive is important to us.

E.J.:​ And executionally, how are you doing that? What were some of your first steps to raise that awareness and put that image out there?

Amy:​ The first thing we did is we talked to everybody internally. We took them through the brand strategy. We took them through the brand plan. And then we started to create and build our advertising and also our experiential.

You may know we spend a tremendous amount of our marketing budget in experiential. But we started with a brand campaign. We called it “Blank Canvas,” and it was building a luxury brand from absolutely nothing—from the blank canvas—and being able to create something that was absolutely incredible. It was really important for people to take notice, right? At least check us out.

E.J.:​ As you were doing this, I imagine, like with all new things, with all new approaches, you might have gotten a little bit of pushback internally. Did that happen, and how did you handle that?

Amy:​ Yeah, absolutely. Creative is something that’s very subjective, right? I come from the world of data. I have a very weird brain—I’m left‑brained, I’m right‑brained. I’m an engineer that’s found her way to marketing. I’m in love with the consumer, but I love to drive from a base of data, and it’s very important to do that.

So oftentimes, when you speak with data, you can get people on your side. We knew we weren’t going to out‑engineer the German luxury brands, even though, when you put our vehicles side by side—when you do the crash testing, when you look at the content, when you look at the luxuriousness of the leather—we stood out. But it was important that we told our story, and that we told our story in a way that could resonate with the consumer.

And we had to do that in a way that was different. And what we decided to do was really lean into that Korean hospitality. That was our differentiator—the way that we show up to the consumer, the way that we invite consumers into our experiential space, the way that we advertise. It’s all based in that Korean hospitality. And nobody argued with that. That was something that people universally thought was authentic to our brand and that we could absolutely deliver.

Early proof it was working—and the ‘aha moment’

E.J.:​ So in a sense, while you’re new in America, you are actually using a little bit of your heritage, your Korean heritage, to inform this kind of new positioning. What was the first sign you saw that this was working?

Amy:​ Our ads—people started to absolutely love our ads. Our scores—we use Ace Metrix—our scores were off the charts. Our awareness was growing, our opinion was increasing, and most importantly, we were selling more vehicles.

If you looked at our sales last year, our sales were up 10%, and the industry was down. The luxury industry was down. So at the end of the day, it’s our job to put more people in our vehicles so they can then talk about our vehicles.

It’s a wonderful thing. We call it the “aha moment.” You know, I talked about our experiential. We do these events where we bring people in and they sit in our vehicles, and they just kind of sigh.​ They can’t believe the quality of the leather. They can’t believe the way that we’ve stitched the leather. They can’t believe the content inside the vehicle.

In the vehicle I drive, there’s a crystal sphere that is the PRNDL. Every time you turn the vehicle on, that crystal sphere lights up and flips over, and it just welcomes you into the vehicle. So once we get people in the vehicle and show it to them, it’s very impactful, and they talk about it to all of their friends. And oftentimes they go and they buy one.

Picking the right KPIs—and talking to CFOs in their language

E.J.:​ You talked about the bottom line—sales. I think a lot of CMOs these days are struggling with: what metrics are you using, how are you impressing your CFO, your CEO, who basically do want just that bottom line number? But yet, sometimes brand building takes time, and you don’t have those sales results right away. Did you encounter any of that, and what kind of data were you using in that early period to let the rest of the team know, hey, this is working?

Amy:​ We use so much data. I remember I had all of the smart people I knew on my team. I brought in all the big minds from the agency, and we sat in a room and we brainstormed all of the KPIs that were possible for us to look at. And we looked at them.

We used a framework of the marketing funnel, and we said, what are the KPIs that drive demand? Search, maybe housing starts, maybe the S&P 500. And then we went down the funnel, and we looked at all of these KPIs. We probably came up with, I don’t know, 75 to 100 of them. We then ran correlations to sales on each one of them. And then as a team, we came up with two to three—one primary, a couple secondary. And we use those KPIs to really drive the business.

That’s what we use internally, to the board, to the CFO, we use things like awareness. We use opinion. We use sales, of course. Pricing power, incentive spend. And then the most important is sales. Are we selling? Are we growing?

And, you know, I’ve worked for brands that didn’t grow. I worked for brands that lost market share for 20 to 30 years. And it’s so exciting to work on a brand that has been growing for the last five years.

Inside Genesis House and the role of experiential

E.J.:​ One of the really interesting things Genesis is doing from a retail perspective—you guys have something called the Genesis House in New York City’s Meatpacking District. For folks who aren’t familiar with that, can you explain what it is?

Amy:​ It is an incredible space. It’s in New York City, as you said. It’s in the Meatpacking District. It’s right across from Restoration Hardware. It is a one‑acre building, and it has three floors. It has a Michelin Guide Korean restaurant on the top floor. It has a tea house. It also has a space in the middle where we display our vehicles. And then in the basement, it has this incredible experiential space with screens on the ceiling, on the walls, on the floors, where we do these incredible tentpole events that are almost like going to a modern museum. And it’s all free. Anybody can walk in off the street to the Genesis House and really experience our brand.

E.J.:​ Do you see this as more of a brand image play? Are you actually selling in this space, or is that not the point?

Amy:​ We don’t sell in the space. That isn’t the point. People can always get more information if they choose and want to go visit a dealer, and that’s the dealer’s job to sell the vehicle. It’s our job to really create a cultural experience for anybody. They don’t have to be a consumer or potential luxury buyer.

So many people bring their children. We do partnerships and we do these tentpole events. We did one with Gwyneth Paltrow. We did one with Ashley Park. We have some really exciting events planned this year. But it’s really an opportunity to just experience Korean hospitality and understand a little bit more about where our brand came from.

E.J.:​ We were talking about measurement earlier. This does not sound like a cheap investment. I mean, just real estate in New York alone is expensive. How do you measure the success of this? Is there anything you look at in particular to make sure this is something you still want to do?

Amy:​ I don’t think I could ever do an ROI to justify to the CFO how this makes business sense, but I will tell you, the emotional experience that people have when they go really is incredible.

We’ve taken many of our partners to the Genesis House. When I’m in New York, I’ll host NBC, or I’ll bring our Google friends, or maybe our partners from Meta, Netflix. They’ll come to the space. They’ll see our vehicles. We’ll maybe take them through a tentpole. We’ll buy them dinner. And they take a minute and they say, “Amy, we really didn’t understand your brand, but now we do.”

It just is an incredible space, and you really feel the brand.

E.J.:​ When you have regular consumers in there, is there anything you’re learning from them that you couldn’t learn using traditional media?

Amy:​ I think the biggest learning is how important the culture is, and how important treating people with that hospitality is, because then they go and they talk to other people: “Oh, that Genesis House …”

So many people think it’s a private club. It looks like a private club. It feels like a private club. But it’s not. It’s a welcoming place where we want everybody to stop by. Welcome to Genesis.

What brands should know about doing experiential well

E.J.:​ Last question on this topic. As you mentioned, you’ve been at other brands. Do you think that brands could be doing more of this kind of experiential right now? What would your advice be to other CMOs who are considering doing something like this? What were some of your learnings?

Amy:​ You know, I think customers want more experiential. They want it in a way that’s authentic. They want a way that they can build a relationship with a brand. But it has to be authentic, and you have to provide them a value exchange, right? You can’t just set up an experiential event, expect people to show up, and just speak to them about your brand. But how do you make them feel?

I’ll give another example. One of our big events and one of our big investments is in golf. There are all the right reasons why we are in golf. Our customers—it’s the No. 1 hobby for the customers that buy Genesis. We have all that reason. But the way we execute our signature event, the Genesis Invitational, is like nothing I’ve ever experienced.

You talk about honored guests—it doesn’t matter if you are a player, if you are a caddie, if you are a player’s wife, if you are a consumer. The way that that is executed is very, very much Korean hospitality. And again, it’s how we make people feel. And then hopefully they go and give our vehicles a chance, and they feel incredible when they’re driving their vehicle.

What Genesis has planned for the New York Auto Show

E.J.:​ Can you tease anything you guys are planning to do in New York? Speaking of experiential, right? It’s one of the bigger auto shows on the calendar.

Amy:​ Yeah, we love the New York Auto Show. There are two auto shows where we really lean in in the U.S. One is New York, and one is the LA Auto Show. We bring our event space. We always have hospitality. Last year, we had Korean doughnuts from Not a Donut that were a huge success.

This year, we’re going to have our GV60 Magma, which is our first performance vehicle. We’re also going to have a G90 Wingback concept vehicle. And then my favorite—we have a new lineup called Prestige Black. It is the most incredible, nasty, blacked‑out series that I have ever experienced. And we offer that on our G80, our G90, our GV80 and our GV80 Coupe. And then we’ll have a new vehicle, our GV70 Prestige Graphite, that will be on display.

We’ll have more treats and we’ll have some surprises. I don’t know if you know this, but we own Boston Dynamics, and we’ll have a new influencer there that may or may not be Spot. And there’ll be some fun things for people to experience. Do you get a chance to go to the show?

E.J.:​ That’s one show I’ve never been to. But now that I know there’s going to be a robot dog, I might actually go.

Amy:​ Well, we would love to host you if you’d love to come experience some Korean treats and see Spot. You never know what he or she or it is going to be wearing.

We had Spot at the Invitational, and he worked with all of our influencers. He got a hole in one. He was putting. He was serving drinks and Korean salt bread, and he was dressed like a golf ball. So for a week, we called him Dimples.

CMO to CMO

E.J.:​ We have a lot of CMOs on this podcast. So if you could ask another CMO one question, what would it be?

Amy:​ Oh my gosh. So I am obsessed with Kory [Marchisotto] at e.l.f. Beauty. So many people think e.l.f. is just a TikTok brand, but when you look at what she and the team have done, they have spent so much time investing in their first‑party data platform. They have their Beauty Squad. So everything she does is based on data, but then she also really pushes the envelope.

I’ve heard that she says, “Why the e.l.f. not?” And I love that. We’re always pushing the envelope at Genesis. I always say to the team, “What if it all works out? What if we can do it?” I would ask Kory how she set up all the unsexy things that have led to 28 consecutive quarters of growth in such a competitive industry. So hats off to her. Would love to have coffee with her someday.

E.J.:​ All right, we’ll try to make that happen. Thanks again for your time today.

Amy:​ Thank you.

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In this episode, Ad Age Marketer's Brief host Adrianne Pasquarelli interviewed Khalid El Khatib, CMO of Consumer Reports. Below is the transcript, which has been lightly edited for clarity.

Adrianne:​ Earlier this month, Consumer Reports came out with its biggest ad push in five years—a $3 million effort tied to the tagline “We Never Stop Questioning.” Let’s unpack this campaign. I’d love to start with why the company decided it was time for a push like this.

Khalid:​ Sure. I think in order to answer that question, you have to know a little bit about Consumer Reports. Many people know us as the print publication that either they, their parents or their grandparents have received for many years—90 years, in fact. We’re celebrating our 90th anniversary this year, just in February. What a lot of people don’t know is that, in addition to our ratings and reviews, we’re also a nonprofit advocating for consumer protections and a lot of systemic change. So we felt that, in light of our anniversary and a lot of things changing in the world—for better and for worse—now was the right time to really signal and remind people of our relevance, of all the trust that they’ve put in us over the past 90 years. But more than anything, also our utility and how helpful we can be to people in this moment.

Adrianne:​ What kind of creative are you putting out? And was there a particular insight about how consumers are changing, or what they’re looking for, that led to that creative messaging?

Khalid:​ There are a couple of insights that led there. We’re running the full spectrum: a lot of digital display and social media, but also out-of-home, connected TV and, in fact, linear TV as well—primarily in eight DMAs across the country. We’ve augmented that with a couple of additional linear campaigns in markets where we have a relationship.

One insight that I love to talk about came from a partner at [design firm] IDEO who did a presentation recently. There’s been sort of a flip: whereas Gen Z is going analog—taking themselves offline and getting off social media—older folks, boomers, those 55-plus, are becoming more and more online. I think that’s been really interesting in light of this campaign, because we actually bifurcated it a bit. We’re reaching those who know us super well—longtime subscribers who are 55-plus—and then those who maybe need a reintroduction or need to learn more about Consumer Reports in the 35-to-55 range. That older audience may seem counterintuitive, but if you have a parent or a grandparent who’s always on TikTok, like my 81-year-old father, then maybe not so much. We have a huge social push there. The campaign looks quite sleek, and we’re reaching older folks in particular who we see as being hyper-online right now.

Adrianne:​ So then the younger folks—you’re trying to reach them through some of those digital channels, but also through traditional channels like linear TV or print. Do you have any out-of-home or anything like that?

Khalid:​ We do. We have a considerable amount of out-of-home. We’re also leaning into channels like YouTube. While younger people may be pulling back from platforms like Meta, for example, they are consuming a lot of content on YouTube, so we’re going heavy there.

Adrianne:​ Yes, they may be touching grass, but they are not completely offline, that’s for sure. What about this tagline, “We Never Stop Questioning”—what’s the creative push there?

Khalid:​ Consumer Reports is a 90-year-old organization and print publication—the third most widely circulated magazine in the country, which not a lot of people know. We review about 10,000 products every single year.

But, again, what people don’t know is we’re a nonprofit and we also do a lot of investigation. In addition to telling people what to buy and what not to buy—where a lot of other companies stop—we keep going. We work with manufacturers and legislators to ensure that consumers are safe. At the core of this campaign are a couple of questions that we’ve effectively answered over the past year or so. One of them is: “Is my used car cursed?” For many years we have been reviewing cars on our 327‑acre test track in Connecticut. We recently made a push—given affordability issues and incredibly high interest rates—to review used cars. So this is a question that we ask and then answer in the campaign.

Another huge one is we had a big moment, and really tapped into the zeitgeist, when we did reviews of protein powders. Our investigation found that many of them—vegan and chocolate protein powders in particular—contained high levels of lead and heavy metals. So one of the core questions of the campaign is: “Is there lead in my protein powder?”

What we effectively do is take this moment of anxiety and uncertainty that many people are feeling, where they don’t really know who to trust or who to turn to. We ask the question and then remind them that we, Consumer Reports—our body of researchers, scientists and engineers—effectively never stop questioning, and we have answers for them.

Adrianne:​ That’s great. I need to take a look at some of that, especially from an automotive perspective, as we think about what’s going on in the world right now.

Khalid:​ Indeed.

Why independence matters amid misinformation

Adrianne:​ From a behavior standpoint, are you finding that, amid all this AI slop and misinformation out there, this is more about the trust issue—problems with consumers distinguishing between what’s real and what’s fabricated—in addition to the other issues around ingredients in protein powder that shouldn’t be there?

Khalid:​ It’s a good question. I’ve been in this role for a couple of years now, and I think my hypothesis coming into it, as we started to craft this campaign, was that people really care about trust and we should lean heavily into trust and our 90‑year legacy.

The reality is yes, we should, and that matters to people—but so does utility in a moment where people are really concerned about pocketbook issues. So what we try to do in this campaign is marry this notion of trust and utility.

We don’t think we’re displacing AI or that it’s an us‑versus‑them issue. The reality is that most of our members and prospective members—and those who really evangelize Consumer Reports—are very intentional about the purchases they make. They have a suite of tools and no shortage of sources they go to when they’re making a major purchasing decision or trying to keep their family safe when it comes to things like groceries.

In all likelihood, they’re using ChatGPT or Claude, they’re looking at Reddit, they’re maybe using Wirecutter—but they’re also using Consumer Reports. We wanted to not aggressively go after AI, for example, but to remind people of our relevance and how they can use us in their day to day.

We’re about a month into the campaign at scale, and some of the insights we’re seeing are really interesting. We’re indexing really high on being perceived as scientific and rigorous—that’s really off the charts—as is our independence. That’s really critical. We don’t take any advertisements, which is very different than many peers and others in the product category, and we buy everything that we test. In a world in which—whether it’s AI or influencers and content creators—you can’t really discern where the bias is, that independence is critical to get across as well.

Adrianne:​ That’s great that you’re seeing some of those early indicators pointing in an interesting direction like that. Do you have any other metrics or feedback from this early part of the campaign that you can share?

Khalid:​ Sure, yes. Like I said, Consumer Reports is a testing organization, and there’s an obsession with data here. We went into this knowing that we had to really prove out the efficacy if we were going to continue to invest.

We’re tracking CPM, CTR, impressions—all of those things relative to benchmark. We’re also assessing some of the attributes of the campaign and how they’re performing. In addition to awareness and familiarity, we’re really leaning heavily into consideration. We’re weighing that against what we call the awareness audience—those younger folks we’re trying to build awareness with—and the affinity audience, those we’re trying to get to either reengage with Consumer Reports or continue to evangelize. One of the really interesting stats we’ve seen so far is subscription intent: those willing to consider a subscription to Consumer Reports is up about 9.5% for those who saw the ad relative to those who didn’t.

Adrianne:​ In addition to the print report, where can consumers find your brand? Is it only the print?

Khalid:​ No, absolutely not. We have a print publication, which I recommend. I actually think, in this world of everything being pushed to us and retargeted all the time, it’s really nice just to get something in the mail and think, “Oh, I need bug spray, it’s almost summer. I didn’t realize I needed bug spray.” We review bug sprays by literally having testers stick their hands in a vat of mosquitoes, which is crazy.

Adrianne:​ I hope you’re not having to do that.

Khalid:​ I don’t personally, but our CEO always says that he wants to, which I think is crazy. We have a robust online presence. In addition to that, we have an app. So if you’re at the dealership trying to gauge which car is right for you, you can pull up the app, which has an agent tool called SCR. It’s like any of the other AI bots, except it’s trained entirely on our 90‑year archive. You know there’s no bias there, you know there’s independence and the same rigor and research you’ve come to expect.We also have a pretty robust social media presence as well.

Adrianne:​ How long have you had that chatbot?

Khalid:​ Oof, good question—almost two years now. But it continues to get better. One of the most interesting things about that experience: we ask a lot of questions—“Is there lead in my protein powder?” “Why is peanut butter more expensive than it was last week, and why is there less?” questions like this. One of the CTAs [calls to action] directs people to a landing page tied directly to the campaign, where the chatbot is pre-populated with all of the questions the ads ask. So if you see the campaign and you’re like, “Wow, is there lead in my protein powder?” you can go to that website, click the question and it’ll populate the answers based on our article and research.

Adrianne:​ That’s great—so handy. Did you work with a creative agency on this, or was it all done in house?

Khalid:​ We did work with a creative agency. There was a really great effort across the organization, but we worked with Red Antler on creative, and our agency of record, Kepler, handled the buy. The thing that I love about both agencies is they’re so deeply integrated into our work. One of the things we have is a 20,000‑square‑foot testing lab in Yonkers where we test everything from TVs to washing machines. We have a replica studio apartment where we test robotic vacuum cleaners, so it’s this really quirky place. We also have a 327‑acre test track in Connecticut, like I said. Some of the outputs of the creative actually came from Red Antler exploring our facility, talking to our testers and learning what members care about when they’re reading ratings and reviews.

Adrianne:​ So let’s talk a bit about your own background. You joined Consumer Reports two years ago with a growth mindset and were tasked with really reinvigorating the brand. Where were you before this, and what were some of the lessons you learned in your own career journey that helped prepare you for this task at Consumer Reports?

Khalid:​ Just before Consumer Reports, I was at a software company and massive website called Stack Overflow. It was a Q&A web platform for developers. While I was there, it was disrupted by AI a couple of years ago, like many other organizations. It was one of the top 50 websites in the world. That was a B2B software company, and on paper a lot of people don’t understand how I made my way to Consumer Reports. What I did learn at Stack Overflow—and at a company called GLG before it, and even earlier when I was agency side working with companies like TED, the TED Conference, and the Motion Picture Association—is the power of community and community as a competitive moat.

When I started at Consumer Reports, what was so paramount to me was that we—the marketing team and the organization more broadly—really listen to our members, see which investigations and product categories are resonating the most and lean into those. I mentioned the massive facility we have in Connecticut and in Yonkers. In many ways, that’s a marketer’s treasure. Historically, Consumer Reports has been a little bit protective of the testing process and the proprietary tools and techniques used to test products. I, and others, really wanted to lift the veil a bit and say, “How quirky is this? How cool is this? And how reassuring that all of this is based in research and science as well.” I think my more technical background has been helpful to that end.

Adrianne:​ And the revenue that Consumer Reports receives comes from members, not from advertisers, as I think you mentioned. It’s interesting, when we think about the media landscape, because we hear so much about these new models for publishing that really prioritize audience or members and user needs. How is Consumer Reports changing itself to be more member‑oriented? How are you incorporating some of those ideas or making this more of a dialogue to make sure you’re addressing member needs?

Khalid:​ At Consumer Reports, the majority of our revenue comes in through membership, like you mentioned, and also donations because we are a nonprofit. Some of our most engaged members have been on file with us for 30, 40, 50 years—sometimes even longer. In addition to receiving the print publication and subscribing online, they donate as well.

Where we’re trying to evolve is really leaning into utility. In addition to SCR [the app agent tool], which has been popular and allows content to be more personalized and more snackable, we are launching other member benefits. We have one called Bill Negotiator that is a white‑labeled third‑party tool that will negotiate things like telephone and cable bills on your behalf. We have a partnership with a company called Chapter, which helps people navigate the decision around Medicare. There are all sorts of tools we’re launching like that that are in pursuit of either consumer protection or pocketbook issues—helping people save money and make smarter purchasing decisions.

Inside the archives at Duke University

Adrianne:​ I wanted to also ask you about your archives, given this 90‑year history. I understand Consumer Reports recently donated those archives to Duke University for a new exhibit in the Sales, Advertising and Marketing History Center. Can you talk a bit about that?

Khalid:​ Our archives, which again are robust, given that they go back about 90 years, are currently on display at Duke University through the end of the school year.

What’s so interesting about the archive is that the more that’s changed, the more that has stayed the same. Consumer Reports has really been on the front lines of holding manufacturers and advertisers accountable—and we still are. I think about some of the investigations we’re launching now around predatory pricing practices, leveraging AI when it comes to grocery delivery, for example. What was interesting as I walked through that archive when I visited is: things we were talking about in the ’40s or ’50s may have been different products. It may have been a little tone‑deaf relative to how we think about and talk about things today, but at the center of it all is consumer safety and pocketbook issues—keeping your family safe.

The other thing that’s really clarifying as you walk through the archives—which not a lot of people know—is Consumer Reports has been on the front lines of some of the most world‑changing issues. We were really early on saying secondhand cigarette smoke is incredibly dangerous. We pushed for mandating seat belts in cars and even backup cameras. One of the reasons that cars now have backup cameras is because Consumer Reports incorporated them into our rating system, and that pushed manufacturers to incorporate them not just in their highest‑end models, but in all cars.

Adrianne:​ It sounds like that exhibit must be really inspiring for you as a marketer—to look to the past to see what worked or how you can prepare for the future.

Khalid:​ That’s right. They say nostalgia is not a strategy, but I think it is very inspiring. We did a 30‑minute video with the archivist—a walkthrough of everything on display and all the photos. I run internal comms in partnership with the comms team as well, and we showed it to everyone. I think almost half, or more, of the organization showed up. It had the highest engagement score of anything we’ve ever showed the staff. When you can rally people internally around your external marketing, it’s great. Leaning into your history and reinforcing why you’re there today is so critical.

Adrianne:​ Stepping back a bit, I wanted to also ask you about other brands out there right now. Are there any other marketers that you’re looking to for inspiration? Which brands are doing a good job of innovating and marketing to consumers right now?

Khalid:​ Look, I’ve always thought that you certainly need your finger on the pulse of what’s happening in your industry, but you need to look outside of the industry as well. It’s probably a cliché example, like how people always say Duolingo is good at social media, but I’m constantly following—and obsessed with—the fast food wars.

What’s happening with McDonald’s and Burger King, I think a couple of things are interesting about everything that transpires there. One is how much they tap into customer voice. Whenever something is happening and social listening picks it up, or social media teams are amplifying it, they’re pretty unafraid to lean in, which I think is great.

The other thing, certainly, that a 90‑year‑old organization can learn—and one that is highly matrixed and very, very careful about what we put out there—is their ability to do rapid response. There was the Oreo moment during the Super Bowl blackout that everyone talked about many years ago, and that still is the North Star of: when something happens, you really want to get out there and do it.

I think that ties back to our campaign. One of the reasons we went with the “We Never Stop Questioning” motif is that if we launch a new investigation, it’s very easy to update and replicate the model here. So, “Is there lead in my protein powder?”—whatever our next investigation is considered—can be a very straightforward question just like that, and we can update the creative accordingly. We look to the fast food industry and the travel industry for their ability to tap into the zeitgeist within hours, not days or weeks. That’s something we want to do as a 90‑year‑old nonprofit.

Adrianne:​ Yeah, that’s critical. That speed to get something out immediately is really crucial, because people are trained to expect it or they’ll move on.

Drawing insights from CES and early results from Roundel's new Precision Plus offering, Drzewicki explains why relevance is outperforming repetition, how first-party data and closed-loop measurement are helping brands prove incrementality, and why discovery increasingly happens offsite through creators, video and social platforms.

Tune in to hear how AI-powered optimization is improving efficiency across the funnel, the role of storytelling in an always-on shopper journey, and what marketers should prioritize as signal loss and fragmentation accelerate.